That's the thing with Nintendo.. Gameplay is in fact the most important thing, but Nintendo is taking it a little too far. They seem to deny that high-quality graphics can heavily influence one's enjoyment, occasionally as much as the gameplay itself.

This is a bad example, but it's the only one that will come to my head right now - I never liked the old Gamecube Naruto fighters (a lot of my previous "group" of friends were huge anime nerds), but I quite enjoy the new 360 one, because it is so. damn. good looking, even though the gameplay is exactly the same.

Nintendo is trying to get by on gimmicks alone. Sometime this works, games like Wii Fit lend themselves to this idea really well, but I think eventually it'll catch up to them that the more "regular" gamers are still gravitating to the 360/PS3.

GTA4 is holy-shit megafun. I'm maybe... 5% with the story because I spend so much time tooling around the city and playing multiplayer (and that school thing I occasionally spend time on).

[quote="sonic3305"]Nintendo is trying to get by on gimmicks alone. Sometime this works, games like Wii Fit lend themselves to this idea really well, but I think eventually it'll catch up to them that the more "regular" gamers are still gravitating to the 360/PS3.[/quote]

Reality tends to disagree with you. From Wikipedia:
[code]US sales figures

Based on figures from the NPD Group.

1. Xbox 360: 9.15 million, as of January 1, 2008[26][27][28]
2. Wii: 7.38 million, as of January 1, 2008[26][27][28]
3. PlayStation 3: 3.25 million, as of January 1, 2008[26][27][28]
Japan sales figures

Based on figures from Famitsu/Enterbrain.

1. Wii: 5,695,579, as of March 30, 2008
2. PlayStation 3: 2,009,492, as of March 30, 2008
3. Xbox 360: 602,558, as of March 30, 2008[/code]

Wiis are still difficult to find for a reason. Contrary to your belief, the "gaming population" isn't only into Halo 3, GTA, and Call of Duty. People are increasingly buying more family-oriented games (something the Wii specializes in), and Nintendo has really been hitting its marks with VERY well-receive games like Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Zelda: Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3, Wario Ware, and hell, even Mario Kart. They appeal to both hardcore gamers and casual players alike...there's nothing to be argued here. Sure, if people want to play the best FPS games out there, they'll turn to the 360 or PC.

But you can't disregard the numbers. The simple fact is this: Despite what you think about what "gamers like", Nintendo's system is still in very high demand in both the US and Japan. It's a strong competitor to the 360 while both leave the PS3 in the dust.

and to address the issue of the Wii being "gimmicky". Yes, many third party developers try to capitalize on the motion sensing technology by making terrible games that use the technology in lame, pointless ways. But where it works, usually in first party games, it works very well. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's gimmicky.

don't forget that third party developers (like EA and ubisoft) are figuring out what they can do very quickly. I expect a couple of really good fps' to come out soon. THe Conduit by a little company named high voltage is pushing the graphics, trying to get to 360 levels(and based off their engine video, not a crazy idea) and make games for the traditional base.

I actually liked Mario Kart Wii. I wasn't expecting much from it, but so far I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

Medal of Honor Heroes 2 and Metroid Prime 3 had great Wii Remote + Nunchuk integration for FPS games. I don't see why so many people are complaining about Nintendo games being too similar. A lot of games from other companies are really similar, look at GTA IV, same as GTA just with better graphics and revamped controls. Was Halo 3 really different from Halo 1 and 2? Will Gears of War 2 be that much different from Gears of War?

[quote="GoldenRhino"]Wiis are still difficult to find for a reason. Contrary to your belief, the "gaming population" isn't only into Halo 3, GTA, and Call of Duty. People are increasingly buying more family-oriented games (something the Wii specializes in), and Nintendo has really been hitting its marks with VERY well-receive games like Super Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Brothers Brawl, Zelda: Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3, Wario Ware, and hell, even Mario Kart. They appeal to both hardcore gamers and casual players alike...there's nothing to be argued here. Sure, if people want to play the best FPS games out there, they'll turn to the 360 or PC.

But you can't disregard the numbers. The simple fact is this: Despite what you think about what "gamers like", Nintendo's system is still in very high demand in both the US and Japan. It's a strong competitor to the 360 while both leave the PS3 in the dust.

and to address the issue of the Wii being "gimmicky". Yes, many third party developers try to capitalize on the motion sensing technology by making terrible games that use the technology in lame, pointless ways. But where it works, usually in first party games, it works very well. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's gimmicky.[/quote]

I wasn't speaking on numbers necessarily, I was talking about how it's annoying that Nintendo has abandoned the gaming market [i]I[/i] fall into. Wiis are going to keep selling like crazy because Nintendo has successfully tapped into the kids and old people casual gaming market they were going for. The people like me, who for example would like a Mario game to be [i]remotely[/i] challenging, tend to not care for the Wii too much. I grew up on Nintendo and have followed them through the years, and now that we're on the third console where we're getting the exact same shit as before, I'm starting to lose my patience with them.

I don't think the Wii's fad status will last forever, and with more big games like GTA4 and MGS4 coming out, it wouldn't surprise me if the mainstream market starts to gravitate away from the Wii and it's motion-gimmick games and paper-thin sequels. (Some games use the motion well, Mario works it in great, Metroid is alright and Wario Ware does it for awesome stuff, but really, 90% of the crap on the Wii uses motion gimmicks because they feel it's necessary, just look at the port of Okami)

PS3 is hardly going to be left in the dust, by the way. It got to 10 million units sold 4 months faster than the 360 did, and with each month the momentum keeps building up as people start to realize it has lots of good games now. It has the Playstation brand slapped on it, it'll gradually have the strongest line up of exclusives, and it actually sells well worldwide while the 360 is a joke in Japan. It wouldn't surprise me if 360 finishes last (though all three will do well).

You grew up playing Nintendo...now you're upset that Nintendo is making kid-friendly games, so those kids will also grow up on Nintendo.

...ooooookaaaaaaaay...

But seriously, there are plenty of awesome games for the Wii, not JUST kid-specific ones, and I'm sure there will continue to be more. Nintendo has ALWAYS had a slightly different game focus than Sony (and Microsoft), and is just continuing in the same way. Bitch all you want, but the majority disagrees with you.

I don't know what you're talking about, Okami Wii had great Wii remote + nunchuk intergration, it wasn't tacked on. Capcom did a great job on that, if anything its better than the PS2 one. Just like RE4 is best on Wii thanks to the controls.

MGS4 really isn't a game that attracts casuals. GTAIV is. Halo is. But just because they're big doesn't mean their better. Wii Fit was a HUGE success in Japan, and probably will be here too, but I wouldn't buy it. I think it's just weird.

I still love that games they've been making. Twilight Princess was the biggest and most epic Zelda game to date. Mario Galaxy had some of the most fun and unique levels in any platformer. Super Smash Bros Brawl had some of the most unique fights of any fighting game ever with a huge cast of Nintendo characters and two third party characters. Metroid Prime 3 had some of the most impressive FPS controls outside the KB/M

[quote="Marekenshin"]You grew up playing Nintendo...now you're upset that Nintendo is making kid-friendly games, so those kids will also grow up on Nintendo.


...Bitch all you want, but the majority disagrees with you.[/quote]

Yes, and yes.

Ok, so Nintendo DOES lean toward family-friendly games that use brighter colors -- As opposed to the brown, dark brown, light brown, grey, black, and brown-grey world of Gears of War. That can be a good or a bad thing.

So, little kids can enjoy them...but you, me, and professional reviewers can as well - Mario Galaxy got consistently high scores from magazines and gaming sites, and you can bet those reviewers were over the age of 15. If someone decides not to give games like Animal Crossing a shot because there's not enough killing in them, then they're probably douche bags.

Would it be better if Nintendo just phased out of existence? No, as you said, and Mare reflected upon...you grew up on games like this. Nintendo isn't catering their games and systems to you...they're trying to after an entire market.

I'll agree with you that many Wii games feature motion-sensing gimmicks. Those are generally third-party developers who think they can make shitty games with a little Wiimote control, and call it a day. Thankfully, you don't have to buy them. Thankfully, there are many other games that AREN'T gimmicky...but I guess you haven't been paying attention.

To reiterate: Nintendo and the gaming community don't revolve around your tastes.

I think the wii will be getting even more gamer focused games (lol) in the future... it's just going to take some bright team to explore that avenue.

Also, I'm getting wii fit, mostly or the balance board. There's a new skateboarding game coming out, called Skate it, from the makers of skate, for the Wii and DS that will use it. Who knows what else.

I must not be seeing where I said the Wii is nothing but kiddie games. I said they are changing their games to be more accessible to kids and old people. They aren't games made to be kid-friendly, but they are changing their existing franchises to be easier, have more rounded edges, so they are not too hard to play or understand for kids or our grandparents.

Again, the best example would be Mario Galaxy, one of the most [i]stupidly [/i]easy games I've ever played. And as one who's followed Nintendo since childhood - when a Mario game wasn't afraid to take my ass and kick it - it's disappointing to see that they have pussified their games to try to appeal to the casual gaming market. I don't see how people fail to understand why this pisses me off.

And I'm not sure if I was clear on this, but I enjoyed Galaxy for a while (the art direction is brilliant), but I stopped caring before the end (the 120-star end) because when a game isn't challenging, there isn't really any reward for beating a level and continuing on. I like a game that gives me a challenge, and Nintendo has been constantly making their Wii games as challenge-free as possible to make games like Galaxy "bridge games" between the mainstream and the casual. Maybe people are just happy with easy games nowadays. But, again, as somebody who grew up on the SNES, I kind of miss the days when Nintendo games beat my ass senseless.

I don't hate the Wii, hating a console doesn't make sense, but I just hate most of the games made for it, the fact that the majority of the games (including first-party games) feel pressured to add motion-sensitivity when a ton of games don't really work with it, and I am growing impatient with Nintendo's copy-and-paste sequels. I doubt everybody feels that way, but I would hardly say I'm in the minority.

And I wasn't suggesting that games like GTA and MGS are "better" because they're big expensive games. I meant big as in notable games a lot of people will be hearing about.

I guess WiiFit will be big then. Just like Wii Sports and Wii Play.

[quote="sonic3305"]words[/quote]

Alright, now your argument is getting better...making more sense.
Difficulty is definitely a good point. And it's not as simple as just making enemies harder to kill, or taking away health packs.

I'm talkin'...the good old days of Super Mario World (man, what a game) where there would be some frequent deaths occuring...but still, the challenge was fine because that game was amazing. Yeah, there's definitely something to be said about Nintendo now having a wider crowd to please. It's shifting more towards [enjoyment through audio/visual/control/cinematic experience], and away from [enjoyment through challenge, and the satisfaction of perfecting your game].

If you guys had trouble with Mario World, you were probably just not very good at it. Yes, you die occasionally, but I died several times from silly jump misguessing and such the first time I tried Galaxy. The games aren't any easier than they were when we were kids. I really feel like Nintendo's doing the same thing they've always done, nothing more and nothing less.

I agree that Galaxy is fairly easy but they added enough interesting stuff to make it really fun for me- it didn't feel like the same old same old. I didn't even really get around to trying all the bonus challenge stages either - I just wanted to keep opening levels and see what was next.

[quote="Marekenshin"]If you guys had trouble with Mario World, you were probably just not very good at it. Yes, you die occasionally, but I died several times from silly jump misguessing and such the first time I tried Galaxy. The games aren't any easier than they were when we were kids. I really feel like Nintendo's doing the same thing they've always done, nothing more and nothing less.[/quote]

I always wonder about that - if I were a kid now and started playing these games, would they seem as hard as their predecessors seemed when I was a kid?

When I replayed SMB3 a couple years back, it felt a lot easier - even when I got to levels that I hadn't done 15 million times as a kid (like world 8). Years of platformer and general gaming experience (lul) seems to make a difference.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm basing this off of. I mean, I go back and play through the classic Mario games now, from the first one up through World (basically everything on All-Stars + World lol), and I just tear through all of them without ever dying, and end up with an insane number of lives. On Mario World I ended up with almost 50 lives by the second ghost house without particularly going out of my way to get them.