Assumptions are bitches, aren't they?

[quote="Blank"]Assumptions are bitches, aren't they?[/quote]

Like yo' momma.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]Surely, there are other linguistic techniques that are valued in Japanese.

(or becoming familiar enough with it until you "think" in Japanese, which I'd wager nearly no JSLer does)[/quote]

I think in Japanese when talking in Japanese. You tend to learn to do that when you've been studying a language for a while, because it's about a billion times faster than translating to and from English while talking.

Also, from what I've seen, Japanese put a lot of value on metaphors and imagery, as well as playing with the sounds of words (using similar sounding words, etc; something we do as well).

But yeah, good post.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]I obviously can't know for sure, but if I had to bet, I would bet on English as being the most poetic, emotional, and versatile language in the world, if only because it is perhaps the most developed language.[/quote]

Also, 'cause our dictionary is fricking huge.

lol grey, moot point. You ever seen full-sized dictionaries for other languages? Not like Spanish-English or Japanese-English or German-English, but as in full-sized dictionaries just for that language.

HUGE.

[quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="Bell02"][b]a lot of the lyrics[/b] in Japanese pop and rock songs are generally indirect while a lot of English pop and rock songs are direct... lol[/quote]

My God. Mare. I think you were right - this might actually take some explaining.

Japanese and English are flexible enough so that neither language has a greater tendency to sound "poetic" or "emotional". People are in control of that, not language. You and omnistry are taking your limited scope of music written in Japanese and English and trying to apply it to the languages as a whole. That's completely ridiculous.
...

[/quote]

Lol, stop right there I didn't say anything about the Japanese language as a whole. I was talking about pop songs in general. As I said, I've heard a lot of Songs that are Direct in Japanese. However, I also said I could understand what point that person may have been trying to make, and it is true, generally Japanese Pop songs have more indirect lyrics than American Pop Songs. (Same Applies for a lot of Mainstream Japanese Rock)

It has nothing to do with the language, I'm not sure where you got that in my post! (Technically, I didn't even agree with the comment)

Now I admit, I don't know much about American and Western Music, but from what I've heard a lot of the popular songs mainly interpret one way and won't always dance around with metaphors.


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After reading the latest posts. I have to add what I really think. Calling something like a language more poetic than another language is silly in the first place because poetry is about as subjective as you can get, and what may seem poetic in one language may not be in another. (I didn't want to say it because it's a little rude, but if you think about it, it's very true)

Also, I'm not sure how you can learn a language and not think in it. Especially not when you are speaking it, it just sounds more difficult than needs to be, but oh well. Sometimes I think I'm weird so maybe it's not too difficult for other people... I just can't imagine learning a language this way.

[quote="Bell02"]generally Japanese Pop songs have more indirect lyrics than American Pop Songs. (Same Applies for a lot of Mainstream Japanese Rock)

Now I admit, I don't know much about American and Western Music, but from what I've heard a lot of the popular songs mainly interpret one way and won't always dance around with metaphors.[/quote]

So...pretty much...you're making an unjustified blanket statement, and then saying that you have very little credibility in that statement.

How much Japanese pop have you listened to? How many different bands? And you say you don't know much about Western pop... I don't even see why you're trying to prove a point here.

It's as useful (and accurate) as me saying that East Indian music in the 1400s was more [i]this[/i] or [i]that[/i] way than East Indian music in the 1600s.

Poetry is not about as subjective as you can get, as it is not simply based on arbitrary likes and dislikes, as in various types of music. Very much like painting, there is an identifiable set of objective attributes that are valued within a culture - or a language, in this case.

Being strictly objective, it is not very far fetched to consider English to be the premier language for poetry. As far as modern (and not so modern) times go, English has been widely used around the entire world for poetry, and it now dominates as a "world language" of sorts. As a result, poetic techniques have been developed far beyond those of any other language, [i]especially[/i] Japanese, which had been somewhat of a reclusive language as early as sixty years ago.

In my most honest and humble of opinions, I must interject and insist that English is the exact opposite of what a poetic language is! It is, actually, Hungarian that is the most poetic of all languages. I know, having spoken it for 2/3s of my entire life. Every word starts with A, so alliteration is abundant.

oll dis thred.

Is it really worth going around circle-jerking, pondering the depth of an opinionated statement that really doesn't mean jack shit?


Hint: Circle-jerking makes you gay.

Haha, oh Blank - you can't save face on something stupid you've said by tying it to homosexuality. Or can you?

[quote="sheerheartattack"]Haha, oh Blank - you can't save face on something stupid you've said by tying it to homosexuality. Or can you?[/quote]

You misunderstand, dear Watson. Circle-jerking makes you [i]gay.[/i]

[quote="sheerheartattack"]Being strictly objective, it is not very far fetched to consider English to be the premier language for poetry. As far as modern (and not so modern) times go, English has been widely used around the entire world for poetry, and it now dominates as a "world language" of sorts. As a result, poetic techniques have been developed far beyond those of any other language, [i]especially[/i] Japanese, which had been somewhat of a reclusive language as early as sixty years ago.[/quote]

Um, Japanese values different poetic techniques than English, and has been doing poetry for at least as long. Don't forget that the first major epic novel was credited to Japan with Tale of Genji.

My point:

No, no language is superior.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]
How much Japanese pop have you listened to? How many different bands?
[/quote]

A lot, I'm not going to list them. Mostly it was high school (Now a-days I don't listen to much J-pop, but other genres), but you can't really escape pop in most of the popular music verity TV shows. I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest of how much Japaneses music I listen to, we're already so much off topic already (but don't get me wrong, I am enjoying where this topic is going)

I guess to be fair I'm not trying to prove any point really, to be honest, I don't actually agree that "Japanese is more Poetic than English in the first place".

I wanted to see if I could have made anything clear without having to site an example (Because as much as I figure you guys probably don't feel like reading that much, I don't feel like typing that much)... and really all that is goes down to is that I was hinting that Japanese songs are Different Lyrics wise from Western Songs is because there are differences in social rules among the countries. (With out having to say it, because I really don't like the way some people talk about Japan like it's the Exotic Unobtainable "Far East". The Far East that has "crazy programs that make no sense", "bubbly poppy music", "Too hard to understand" Japan. (But enough of that rant.) (Also... not like all western countries can really be grouped together either though, on social rules lol. I guess I really mean American, but I said western to cover my bases because Music from Europe sometimes is a big hit in the US)

ok, Mr. Children, Ayumi Hamasaki, Stephanie, Angelia Aki, Kinki Kids


That's my Japanese Example (basically the first five to come to mind of pop and popular rock ('cause I still don't consider Mr. Children pop :p)), my English examples (Bare with me, lol ... actually I'll just try to find the top 5 pop/rock songs as of now on yahoo or something)


I didn't list any Rap, Hip hop or Urban for either side because they seem to always have the most direct lyrics, lol. (Well, that isn't entirely true all the time still, but in mainstream...)
[quote="Fake, Mr. Children"]Now that you mention it, we're basically just fakes, created as likenesses
In order to avoid catching onto this right away, we live our false-bottomed lives

The feeling of cursing someone from their cheeks down to their diaphragm, wells

up inside of me
Saying "I hate this!"
I'm living my life today as something of a last resort

Carrying futility, with my dreams dangling, I take off to tomorrow, from the

second floor
[/quote]

[quote="(miss) understood, Ayumi Hamasaki"]
I said to myself "I'm OK"
And showed my usual smile
I didn't feel in desperation
But in a kind of defiance

I hid my trembling hand
Because their sympathy was so hollow

I don't get warmed
By the half-hearted and artificial warmth
I rather want them to shut their eyes
Until I break into pieces without a trace

I don't want to hear nor speak
The fine words any longer
The pain will be getting worse
So I just accept it

The air is awfully clear
The calm before a storm
[/quote]

[quote="Friends, Stephanie"]
While we wore the same smiles,
We passed through the years together.
The sceneries kept changing,
And we struggled to accept it.

I throw away my useless pride.
May kindness come to this world.

I Gotta Say
Even if I show off my bravery and my strength,
I can't survive alone.
Our promise from that day,
It remains firmly in my heart, even now.
[/quote]

[quote="Home, Angela Aki"]
A delicate thread binds me to this simple city
Every time I look up at the sky, I see a faraway world
And after I leave this little town, I may past it by, but
Home is calling

Home, even now it gently echoes in my heart, dyed in loneliness
on the nights when I can`t dream, I can hear you call out to me

I entrust my dream to the city`s sky, and makes sacrifices in my heart
The harmony of love and ambition is not achieved and everyone just wanders about
What is the point of loving, if you don`t spend your day in honesty
Home is calling
[/quote]

[quote="SNOW! SNOW! SNOW!, Kinki Kids"]
Snow! Snow! Snow!
Oh helpless snow
You can't cover
Our love

From the sky, it's as though it's controlled
By invisible wings, until it hits the ground
And in my heart
It quietly piles up

If put into words
Memories can hurt
Just by staring at you
I understand your pain
My love
[/quote]

*Note: These aren't my translations. :p

[quote="Higher, Heidi Montag"]
Here I go now, I’m keeping my eyes open don't you let me down.
Nothing can stop me now, I know you hear this sound. Go ahead and let it out, don’t be afraid to fly, fly high, reaches past the sky

Here we go let it flow, spread your wings and fly, you never known till you let it go, going up, up, up, up

I’m only going higher, higher, I’m gonna take it higher, higher
No time for looking back, I dream and that’s a fact, I’m only going higher higher, higher
[/quote]

[quote="Piece Of Me, Britney Spears"]
I’m Miss American Dream since I was 17
Don’t matter if I step on the scene
Or sneak away to the Philippines
They still gon put pictures of my derrière in the magazine
You want a piece of me?
You want a piece of me…

I’m Miss bad media karma
Another day another drama
Guess I can’t see the harm
In working and being a mama
And with a kid on my arm
I’m still an exceptional earner
you want a piece of me?
[/quote]

[quote="Apologize, OneRepublic"]
I'm holding on your rope,
Got me ten feet off the ground
I'm hearin what you say but I just can't make a sound
You tell me that you need me
Then you go and cut me down, but wait
You tell me that you're sorry
Didn't think I'd turn around, and say...

It's too late to apologize, it's too late
I said it's too late to apologize, it's too late

I'd take another chance, take a fall
Take a shot for you
And I need you like a heart needs a beat
But it's nothin new
I loved you with a fire red-
Now it's turning blue, and you say...
"Sorry" like the angel heaven let me think was you
But I'm afraid...
[/quote]

[quote="Don't Stop The Music, Rihanna"]
Please don't stop the music

It's gettin late
I'm making my way over to my favorite place
I gotta get my body moving shake the stress away
I wasn't looking for nobody when you looked my way
Possible candidate (yeah)
Who knew
That you'd be up in here lookin like you do
You're makin' stayin' over here impossible
Baby I must say your aura is incredible
If you dont have to go don't

Do you know what you started
I just came here to party
But now we're rockin on the dancefloor
Acting naughty
Your hands around my waist
Just let the music play
We're hand in hand
Chest to chest
And now we're face to face
[/quote]

[quote="Clumsy, Fergie"]
Can't help it
The girl can't help it

First time
That I saw your eyes
Boy you looked right through me, mmmhmm
Play it cool
But I knew you knew
That cupid hit me, mmm mmm

You got me trippin, stumbling, flippin, fumbling
Clumsy cuz I'm fallin in love
You got me slippin, tumbling, sinking, fumbling
Clumsy cuz I'm fallin in love
So in love with you
[/quote]

I guess to be fair, English music is more indirect that I initially remember, but there is still a difference that is noticeable. I guess I probably should have used the top 5 songs for Oricon to make a better example, but I really didn't want to do any translations myself. (or rather, listen to whole songs)

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I still stay by Poetry being subjective because Art is very subjective. It's been repeated throughout history, for all the artists and poets who when through life without being able to make a penny off their work throughout their life to have their paintings in the Louvre now or poems studied in schools worldwide. Are we to say the people back then were uncultured? We can make claims that this and that makes something poetic, but who's to say we won't change these ideas in 200 years or even 2000 years.

Lol, FLCL.