It's cool, I got that you didn't really mean that. Your phrasing definitely gave something of that appearance, though.

I think in general, both on this board and in the world at large, we tend to take a low-caliber approach to expressing our opinions on things and revert to declarations that come off as proposed facts rather than remembering to soften our language so that our meaning is easier to get across. We say "this sucks" instead of "I'm not a fan," etc.

Not trying to browbeat here, of course, just trying to highlight why it makes sense to me that Essel would have been bothered by your phrasing. I can easily understand people not liking the new albums as much; personally I dislike a ton of the production choices since switching to Avex, you can hear an extremely stark difference in the levels and tones of the guitars from Wake Up! onwards, in my opinion.

On a positive and more relevant note, glad you did find some tracks that you can enjoy off of it. Tokai no Alice took until the album to really warm up to me, I think that the songs around it manage to help show off what makes it an interesting song via rhythmic contrast.

[quote="Revol"]I don't need to justify anything. If you think what the band have been putting out ever since they switched to Avex can be compared to their previous records (with the exception of Trial, and maybe Wake Up to some extent), then I really think you're in the vast minority here.

If you don't think so, but you still consider them good records, that's perfectly fine. Taste in music is subjective, there's no other way around it. That's why I said earlier it wasn't necessary to mention the word [i]opinion[/i]. But I won't let my own opinion be swayed because I'm being distasteful towards what I consider poor quality by Pillows standards.[/quote]

Dude, we've gone over this argument time and time again. You shouldn't compare the work they are putting out today from what they put out in the past. It has nothing to do with how good or bad it is. Mainly because back when we first heard of the pillows and got that raging hard on for them we dug deeper into their discography only to fall more in love. Now that love has matured and you're taking that love and throwing it away because the pillows are not as hot as they use to be when they were a young band. I guess old geezers trying to be rock stars just isn't lifting the stick anymore

[quote="Marekenshin"]I can easily understand people not liking the new albums as much; personally I dislike a ton of the production choices since switching to Avex, you can hear an extremely stark difference in the levels and tones of the guitars from Wake Up! onwards, in my opinion.[/quote]

Yes, exactly!

[quote="Brye916"]Dude, we've gone over this argument time and time again. You shouldn't compare the work they are putting out today from what they put out in the past. It has nothing to do with how good or bad it is. Mainly because back when we first heard of the pillows and got that raging hard on for them we dug deeper into their discography only to fall more in love. Now that love has matured and you're taking that love and throwing it away because the pillows are not as hot as they use to be when they were a young band. I guess old geezers trying to be rock stars just isn't lifting the stick anymore [/quote]

Well, I haven't been much active around here, so I don't know what you guys have been talking about.

I apologize for sounding so negative, it wasn't my intention to stir up the spirits. I just thought that after Trial, and then after hearing Happy Birthday which I really like, Moondust would be another good album. But for me it just wasn't the case.

Nothing, apart from Song For You, comes across anywhere close to bad. I kind of feel like Message should be the second track, like a better retention of energy than BATM. I'd say BATM, Anemone and Song For You don't quite hit their stride. I can't find a thing to complain about with the rest of this album. If people aren't seeing the appeal of Ideal Affection or Prairie Rider or Message, I don't know what to say.

Currently having fun with a remixed Moondust

Clean
Message
About
Prairie
HB
Quarter
Snoozer
Pumpkin
Alice
Moondust
Ideal

[quote="Revol"][quote="Marekenshin"]I can easily understand people not liking the new albums as much; personally I dislike a ton of the production choices since switching to Avex, you can hear an extremely stark difference in the levels and tones of the guitars from Wake Up! onwards, in my opinion.[/quote]

Yes, exactly![/quote]
Do you also feel like the songwriting itself has gotten noticeably worse, or do you think layering and production choices account for most of your issues with the newer work? I still end up liking a lot of songs off each album for various reasons, even while lamenting the production, lol.

[quote]Well, I haven't been much active around here, so I don't know what you guys have been talking about. I apologize for sounding so negative, it wasn't my intention to stir up the spirits. I just thought that after Trial, and then after hearing Happy Birthday which I really like, Moondust would be another good album. But for me it just wasn't the case.[/quote]
No worries at all dude, the art that we do and don't like and how that differs amongst us and changes over time is one of the really cool parts of the experience. On the one hand, it's super cool when we can get past what we differ on while not stifling expression of various opinions both positive and negative, and on the other, it's always fun to be like "What?! But ____ loves X song, how can they hate Y song?!"

[quote="Marekenshin"]Do you also feel like the songwriting itself has gotten noticeably worse, or do you think layering and production choices account for most of your issues with the newer work? I still end up liking a lot of songs off each album for various reasons, even while lamenting the production, lol.[/quote]

The production is my main issue. Then of course the songwriting is not as good as when they were at the peak of their creativity (1995-2006), but it's not bad. However, all their albums have had a particular sound ever since they switched to Avex, particularly the guitar effects and style have become very monotone and dreary. And they seem to be happy with it...

[quote="Revol"]The production is my main issue. Then of course the songwriting is not as good as when they were at the peak of their creativity (1995-2006), but it's not bad. However, all their albums have had a particular sound ever since they switched to Avex, particularly the guitar effects and style have become very monotone and dreary. And they seem to be happy with it...[/quote]

Exactly why I want to hear the songs live. It wasn't until I heard Comic Sonic live at the last American tour they did that I actually liked the song much, for example. I think it's kind of an industry-wide problem for the Japanese rock scene, and something you can even see in Western artists/bands, this issue of bland production. Not necessarily because the instruments were recorded poorly, but just because everything ends up sounding the same, like you noted, in terms of tone and dynamics.

This is going to sound hilarious after my earlier rant, but I've been listening to the album more lately and, well, it has grown on me. I still stand by the points I made in regards to production and overall sameness of style, guitar effects etc., but Sawao shows that his songwriting is still decent enough. He's still able to produce catchy melodies and tunes that work well together.

Aside from the tracks I said I already liked, I've also grown to appreciate About a Rock 'n' Band (strange choice for a single, though), Prairie Rider, Anemone and Song for You (albeit it sounds like it's been recorded inside a trash can or something). Not sold on Moondust. I think it's the weakest song on the album and should have been omitted.

Overall, it's not a bad record. I guess I just needed to listen to it more. It still ranks below all their pre-Avex records for me, but it's better than Horn Again and maybe Ooparts, and up there with Pied Piper.

Are you using headphones or a good stereo system to listen? If so, despite the mediocre production, the sexiness of Manabe's guitar lines (particularly in About a Rock'n'Roll Band and Anemone, I think) pairing up with Sawao's melodies should ring through really strongly and help you grow to see the good bits of it a bit more.

I really like the songwriting on this one, but over time I've definitely been listening to it less because of the production, although that's the same for all the newer albums as my taste goes.

Mostly through my laptop speakers, but I will give headphones a try.

[quote="Marekenshin"]Are you using headphones or a good stereo system to listen? If so, despite the mediocre production, the sexiness of Manabe's guitar lines (particularly in About a Rock'n'Roll Band and Anemone, I think) pairing up with Sawao's melodies should ring through really strongly and help you grow to see the good bits of it a bit more. [/quote]

how far the pillows have fallen, when you need high-end headphones or a stereo system to understand that Manabe's guitar lines are worth listening to. is that how we're justifying new pillows albums now?

to be clear, you're not saying "Oh man, you *gotta* try listening to Dark Side of the Moon in FLAC, on a sweet sound system." no. you're saying "this mall-rock might be worth your time if you could just hear the nuance in the production"

[quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="Marekenshin"]Are you using headphones or a good stereo system to listen? If so, despite the mediocre production, the sexiness of Manabe's guitar lines (particularly in About a Rock'n'Roll Band and Anemone, I think) pairing up with Sawao's melodies should ring through really strongly and help you grow to see the good bits of it a bit more. [/quote]

how far the pillows have fallen, when you need high-end headphones or a stereo system to understand that Manabe's guitar lines are worth listening to. is that how we're justifying new pillows albums now?

to be clear, you're not saying "Oh man, you *gotta* try listening to Dark Side of the Moon in FLAC, on a sweet sound system." no. you're saying "this mall-rock might be worth your time if you could just hear the nuance in the production"[/quote]
It sounds fine to me on earbuds. The album, I mean. This sounds mostly like you're trolling. But I'll bite anyway: The shoddy production qualities (particularly the overcompression) on Moondust flatten out the dynamics and mask a lot of the instrumentation. It's definitely a hurdle to get past and that's unfortunate, but it isn't an indicator of the quality of the songs.

"Mall-rock". Honestly, Ranma.

[quote="sl4"]This sounds mostly like you're trolling.
...
"Mall-rock". Honestly, Ranma.[/quote]

Not trolling, just responding to Mare. And the inevitable butthurt is bullshit - I have no incentive to dislike the pillows' new music. I'm actually really interested in what keeps you guys coming back to something like Moondust (if indeed you actually do). I wish I could hear what you're hearing, because then I would have another album that I appreciate. Who doesn't like good music?

The double-blind test I wish I could run is if everyone could hear Moondust (or TRIAL, etc) for the first time and if it was under the name of a [b]different band[/b] - in other words, if you had no incentive to enjoy it. I think we all have an incentive to like the newest album of our favorite bands. It fucking sucks to be disappointed in the new work of a favorite band, compared to a band you have no investment in. I want to be able to link you or Mare "Clean Slate Revolution" or "Happy Birthday" and say "hey, check out this band you've never heard of, lemme know what you think." Would your opinion be the same? Would it still be worth any of your time? Would you listen to it more than once?

It's a weird experience, guys. There [b]is[/b] a reason this forum is much quieter than it was five, eight years ago. And it's not because people like me are just too damn hard to please, expecting another Please Mr. Lostman each go-around.

There [i]is[/i] the fact that we got into them when we were young and very impressionable, just looking for something to believe in. At least I was. When I got a bit older, around 19, I found it hard to enjoy ANY music that was new to me. None of it could do what the pillows did to me. I would hear new music and just feel intensely depressed that nothing could live up. So yeah, their new stuff is not as good, but it probably seems even worse because we're older.

I can't say for sure [i]why[/i] I like their new stuff. I already know and love the pillows so I'm less skeptical, or whatever. Not as guarded when I hear something new from them. I enjoy songs like Happy Birthday and I don't really look for justification. I just enjoy it.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]It's a weird experience, guys. There [b]is[/b] a reason this forum is much quieter than it was five, eight years ago. And it's not because people like me are just too damn hard to please, expecting another Please Mr. Lostman each go-around.[/quote]
There is also the fact most of us heard them from FLCL, and that's kind of fading into oblivion.

I'm not even necessarily trying to disprove your points. I just like playing devil's advocate.

There was a time when I wondered why the hell people were fapping over new pillows. I think it was around My Foot. I didn't want to like it because I had such high standards. It's like wanting to have all your relationships be perfect and disregarding or even hating everyone else. I didn't want to give it my approval because it wasn't [i]fucking epic[/i]. I just couldn't hold onto my youthful ideals anymore, you know? My life has changed so much that I just can't hold on to my ideals in general. I genuinely enjoy some of the songs on Moondust, not because I'm trying to like it but because I haven't decided to hate it. Part of me would maybe want to hate it because Sawao isn't so confident anymore. It wouldn't be so bad if he were aging gracefully, but he's all hung up about it. You know, I don't want that to reflect on my identity. I wouldn't be so proud sharing my love of the pillows anymore.

I don't care much about Moondust, just wanted to have my 1000th post.