Jesus Camp makes prominent the fact that they are evangelical Christians.

Not all Christians are Evangelical, just as not all Austrians were Hitler.

About 30% (conservative estimate) of the US is Evangelical Christian. They're not all the same, of course, and the ones in Jesus Camp are more fervent than your average EC, but to dismiss the film's usefulness by labeling these people "fringe" is not entirely fair.

[quote="Jomei"]About 30% (conservative estimate) of the US is Evangelical Christian. They're not all the same, of course, and the ones in Jesus Camp are more fervent than your average EC, but to dismiss the film's usefulness by labeling these people "fringe" is not entirely fair.[/quote]

Word.

[quote="Lesser_Hamster"][quote="sheerheartattack"]No one here said anything about [i]Jesus Camp[/i] depicting Sunday School at their local church - [i]obviously[/i] it depicts a fringe group. That's something [i]you[/i] invented to argue against.[/quote]

This.

Seriously, mang. No one said that Jesus Camp was an accurate depiction of Christianity across the board.[/quote]

I'm aware of that. I've just heard it brought up in other contexts as if it's something we can learn a great deal from, in how it exposes Christianity in the US. Yeah. Jesus Camp is not mainstream Christianity. I just feel like when people want to discuss mainstream Christianity, they should stick to examples of mainstream practitioners - not what is depicted in Jesus Camp. Not saying that anyone in here did, at all. I just see people bring up Jesus Camp as an argument in itself, and I can't really say anything.

I think it's more interesting to talk about something like what Sheer mentioned - who exactly is defining "batshit crazy." While Jesus Camp's tone is entirely different than Bill Maher's "Religulous," I find that when people cite it, it's for the reason that watching extremist people do extremist things is both entertaining and a little scary. People say "You GOTTA see this documentary" - basically it's a total freakshow (if it wasn't a freakshow, people would be less interested. It's "Jesus Camp" not "Evangelical Church"). Personally, I am more interested in discussions where we can talk about the effects of more moderate, mainstream Christianity on society. Evangelicals in general (who are *not* fringe).

Maybe I just want someone to explain to me the usefulness of the film. That's what I'm not totally grasping yet. It's a very important subject and my interpretation has just seen the entertainment/shock value of it, rather than the practical benefits of the documentary format.

Reductio ad absurdum. Jesus Camp demonstrates the logical extension of Evangelical Christian concepts.

And again, I have to point out that, while the behavior at the camp is extreme, a lot of the views expressed by Christians in this film are [b]not fringe[/b].

from wikipedia (lol)
[quote]All three children are already very devout Christians. Levi has preached several sermons at his father's church, Rock of Ages Church in St. Robert, Missouri. He is homeschooled, with his mother explaining that God did not give her a child just so he could be raised by someone else eight hours a day. He learns science from a book that attempts to reconcile young-earth creationism with scientific principles.[5] He is also taught that global warming is a political speculation, that the speculation stems from temperatures being higher in the summer months, that America's temperature has only risen by 0.6 °F, and therefore, the rise is not important. [/quote]

Standard religious right fare.

[quote]At the camp, Fischer stresses the need for children to purify themselves in order to be part of the "army of God". She strongly believes that children need to be in the forefront of turning America toward conservative Christian values. She also feels that Christians need to focus on training kids since "the enemy" (Islam) is focused on training theirs. She refers to the Earth as "a sick ol' world" and wishes for Jesus' return. In the preparation meetings before the camp begins, she asks other staff members how they should prepare for demonic manifestations that may be stirred up during camp services.[/quote]

Sounds kooky, but the stuff about Islam is really just a more honest expression of what you already hear from much of the religious right. And maybe GR is isolated from people who believe these things, but I have had numerous people tell me, without a hint of irony, that they had personally witnessed a demonic possession.

[quote]He prays for Bush to have the strength to appoint "righteous judges" who will overturn Roe v. Wade. By the end of the sermon, the children are chanting, "Righteous judges! Righteous judges!"[/quote]

This is a very mainstream view, and it also demonstrates the brainwashing effect religion has on children as well as the way it can be used to prey on peoples' emotions to manipulate their politics.

[quote]There is also a scene at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado where Ted Haggard preaches a sermon against homosexuality. [/quote]

See above. Also delicious irony

[quote]Throughout the movie, there are cut scenes to a debate between Fischer and Mike Papantonio, an attorney and a radio talk-show host for Air America Radio's Ring of Fire. Papantonio questions Fischer's motives for focusing her ministry efforts on children. Fischer explains that she does not believe that people have the freedom to choose their belief system once they pass childhood, and that it is important that they be "indoctrinated" in evangelical Christian values from a young age. Fischer also explains that democracy is flawed and designed to destroy itself "because we have to give everyone equal freedom."[/quote]

It's important to note that, while some people in the US fear "Sharia law," there are Christian groups in the US that actually advocate fascism, though usually in terms less frank than described above.

So I dunno, there are a few points for you.

For me, Jesus Camp was a bit of foreshadowing; contemporary Evangelicals are training more of their kind using new methods. This ridiculous sect and all of its influence aren't going anywhere. On one hand, yes- the film is a freak show. Watching it, I grew really angry knowing that people would indoctrinate their children this way. They're breeding a culture of ignorance and they don't even know it. Frankly, I don't think that parents should be able to home-school their kids without some serious credentials. These people are just hurting mankind as a whole by depriving their children of a proper education. What's going to become of these kids? Who the hell are they going to be when they grow up? Having been raised in an environment of such staggering ignorance, their very existence will only be an impediment to human progress. They'll effectively be a waste of life. The last thing this world needs is another televangelist.

There's an ignorant, moral zeitgeist in the US these days. People like the ones in this film are mostly to blame. That's why it's useful to watch. It's good to know where some of the world's problems are coming from, you know? Seeing as how the Evangelicals are a powerful group, it can't hurt to learn more about them- even if the subjects of this particular film are extremists. Whether they send their kids to Jesus Camps or not, most of the Evangelicals I've met are pretty ignorant. Not only are they incessant and annoying in their attempts to gain converts, but when you consider the lengths they go to to influence public education (LOL, LET'S TEACH CREATIONISM IT'S TOTALLY LEGIT) and various domestic issues, you realize that they pose an actual threat to this country's future. They're waging a war against [i]reason itself[/i].

[quote="Lesser_Hamster"]For me, Jesus Camp was a bit of foreshadowing; contemporary Evangelicals are training more of their kind using new methods. This ridiculous sect and all of its influence aren't going anywhere. On one hand, yes- the film is a freak show. Watching it, I grew really angry knowing that people would indoctrinate their children this way. They're breeding a culture of ignorance and they don't even know it. Frankly, I don't think that parents should be able to home-school their kids without some serious credentials. These people are just hurting mankind as a whole by depriving their children of a proper education. What's going to become of these kids? Who the hell are they going to be when they grow up? Having been raised in an environment of such staggering ignorance, their very existence will only be an impediment to human progress. They'll effectively be a waste of life. The last thing this world needs is another televangelist.

There's an ignorant, moral zeitgeist in the US these days. People like the ones in this film are mostly to blame. That's why it's useful to watch. It's good to know where some of the world's problems are coming from, you know? Seeing as how the Evangelicals are a powerful group, it can't hurt to learn more about them- even if the subjects of this particular film are extremists. Whether they send their kids to Jesus Camps or not, most of the Evangelicals I've met are pretty ignorant. Not only are they incessant and annoying in their attempts to gain converts, but when you consider the lengths they go to to influence public education (LOL, LET'S TEACH CREATIONISM IT'S TOTALLY LEGIT) and various domestic issues, you realize that they pose an actual threat to this country's future. They're waging a war against [i]reason itself[/i].[/quote]


True that. I was homeschooled for the early part of my life, which left me intelectually, socially, and academically crippled for a long time.

Saw World's Greatest Dad last night. Robin Williams was great in it! Good movie, all around. Highly recommended.

Finally watched Ichi the Killer last night. It was interesting, but I wanted to like it more than I actually did.

[quote="Jomei"]Finally watched Ichi the Killer last night. It was interesting, but I wanted to like it more than I actually did.[/quote]

You watched the unrated, uncut version I hope?

I'm not sure.

Watched American History X tonight, finally. I guess I'm getting "must watch" types out of the way.

American History X is pretty good.

With Ichi there's an R-rated release and an unrated one. The unrated one is only about five monutes longer, but you'd be amazed at how much brutality is crammed into those extra five minutes and how much it helps to propel the film into the god tier. I've been a fan of the film for years though, so I'm pretty biased. There's no way of knowing which one you saw without checkin' out the disc itself, I reckon.

I've wanted to watch Ichi the Killer... but I can get squeamish, so I haven't.

[quote="terra"]I've wanted to watch Ichi the Killer... but I can get squeamish, so I haven't.[/quote]
I really enjoy this film, though it's definitely not for the squeamish. I like a good majority of his works, though. I plan on watching Visitor Q some time this week.

Today, I watched "The Dilemma," "Love and Other Drugs," and "No Strings Attached." Why I'm admitting this is beyond me, but in my defense, what else is there to do on a Sunday when sitting around your girlfriend's house with her and her mother?

Visitor Q is great- one of Miike's best. Let me know what you think of it!
Ichi the Killer isn't that nasty. A lot of people seem to think that it's this hyper-violent, super depraved movie that you have to be really brave or crazy to watch, but in reality that's just a stereotype propogated by Westerners whose understanding of the depraved is extremely limited. Ichi is pretty tame compared to a lot of films I've seen. Give it a shot, Terra! You may really enjoy it. There are some really humorous parts in it, and the cinematography is pretty cool too, IMO.