Smile and Thank You, My Twilight wouldn't have been that much better with Kashima or Kenji. I think he did what he could with those. Then there was PL which was just not good material for bass. Good Dreams wasn't either.

[quote="StevenB130"]First, we've already established why the bass player sucks. He doesn't really contribute anything to the band (Besides low notes), and has nothing to offer in terms of skill, or composition.[/quote]

Understood.

But let me offer another, viewpoint. Does Jun neccessarily need to come up with complex bass in order for the song to become better as a whole, or is simple downpicking enough?

I'd say that some songs, like Funny Bunny in particular are reliant on a great bass lines, while others, like...hell, Heavy Sun don't call for much creativity.

I'm probably taking this advice from my guitar teacher (who's in his 50s, and has played in multiple bands, still gigging), too seriously, but:

"The bass player isn't supposed to act like the lead guitarist. The bassist and the drummer share an important connection - they keep the beat, and stay reserved, while the guitars to the harmony and melody. Some bands come of as being really crappy, because the bassist is trying to do way too much."

That tidbit obviously doesn't apply to everything, but I do think it has some weight. The pillows MODERN style, it seems to me, is very simple. [i]Usually[/i] it goes something like this:

1)Cool intro/or lead verse, with a really catch riff.
2)Melodic verse, with a steady beat.
3)Chorus
4)Verse
5)Chorus
6)Solo
7)Chorus - end.

Now don't flame me for boiling down immense talent into 7 basic steps. I'm just noting that the pillows, when compared to many other bands out there, usually have a simplistic song layout. Sawao does rhythm, Manabe guitar skills shine bright. So much of the music is focused on memorable and pleasing guitar - there's not a lot of stretching room for bass.

And really - are you trying to tell me that Jun Suzuki, or FRAGMENTS, sucks? No. Sucks at bass? Well, I don't think so - hell, he's noted as a guest musician. He's not gonna bust into Sawao, when he's writing My Foot, and say "Hey, check out this sweet bassline I made!" He'll probably work a bit with Sawao and Manabe on the song, but in the end, play the root notes, with a bit of deviation and melody.

I know nothing about music composition. But to me, given the way most pillows songs sound, there isn't whole lot you can do with the bass. Sure, you could put a varied, fitting line in something like Kuuchuu Rejisuta, but it'd take away from the general focus of the song. Sawao seems to value simplicity...

Just an idea.

EDIT:
[quote="thejedipunk"]I'm inclined to believe that Sawao is not interested in tapping Jun's knowledge of bass playing. [/quote]

yes.

Then why even have a bass player if one is not needed? Fuck, you can loop a bass sample. Might as well get an immigrant to do it on the keyboard. If this is all about being cool, that's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Do you think Vivaldi was thinking "Jesus christ I'm gonna get some tail tonight." when he was writing the four seasons? fuck no. Music isn't even about music anymore. It's all about an image, or what the lyrics say. I have nothing against singing, but when it becomes about a message, and not about sound, then I get angry (Christian Music), and then rant.

Take MTV for example. MUSIC TELEVION. 99% of that shit is about fashion, trends or other retarded stuff. I know you all hate MTV because you seem to try to like what isn't cool by todays standards on purpose, but I couldn't think of a better example, even though it is a good one.

I don't even understand how you can say "Jun's knowledge of bass playing." Rock is so unbelievably basic that you can teach it to anybody. That's why 10 year old kids can pick up a guitar and play smoke on the water. And even if he did have knowledge of bass playing, would you make shitty music, or find a way to make good music?

[quote="StevenB130"]And even if he did have knowledge of bass playing, would you make shitty music, or find a way to make good music?[/quote]

I don't know what you mean here. If you by "shitty" you mean "fragments", then that's different.

If you mean "what he does with Sawao", then I think you need to read my post again. The bass, although simple, does benefit the song in my opinion. As you said, at the core, it may be a range of low notes. I'd rather have those low notes holding the song down.

Oh, and you're right about the MTV thing. All of us on IM pretend to hate MTV, just because its trendy to hate popular things. In fact, we're all slaves to fashion, and popular music.

[quote]Oh, and you're right about the MTV thing. All of us on IM pretend to hate MTV, just because its trendy to hate popular things. In fact, we're all slaves to fashion, and popular music. [/quote]

... which is why I listen to Fall Out Boy. Heh.

There probably is some truth to that whole Sawao keeping a tight grip on the direction the band goes.

If you think about it, the band is SUPPOSED to be just two guitars and a drummer. I wouldn't be surprised if Sawao and Manabe compose then songs and just hand them off to Jun to memorize... It can't be the case on all the songs, but I imagine a few of them might be...?

[quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="reneisdead"]I can understand why neither Heart Is There nor Wakare no Uta made the cut, since having 4 dance beats on one album would be redundant as hell.[/quote]

Maybe it's cause they're b-sides?[/quote]

I'm gonna agree with you 100% on this one, haha.

Also, I have to say I'm really thankful for Jun's bass playing. While it might seem too simple to be useful, consider this: Have you ever watched a band's performance, and [i]saw[/i] the bass player playing, but no matter how you tried you couldn't actually [i]hear[/i] him play? It's annoying, because it's an honest-to-god USELESS band member. When someone plays and instrument that makes NO sound, they're useless. 11 times out of 10, it's a bass player. I'm also gonna partially agree with GoldenRhino('s guitar teacher, lol), about modern bass players trying to play a role that doesn't fit them. It all depends on the song itself. If the composer of the song decides he doesn't want the focus to be on the bass, the bassline will be simple, to accompany the guitars and lay a foundation. Most of the time in the pillows, the rhythm guitar does this as well (thus the 'straight 8ths' pattern). I'm also going to say though, that instruments are not meant to be played a certain way! Saying that bass players should or should not play certain things is just stupid. Idea and technique are what defines every musician. In my opinion, whatever sound can be made with an instrument should be utilized if necessary. I've heard some songs that had insane complex bass lines (guy from Phish when I saw him live with Leo Kottke), and thought, "damn that's cool, he's an awesome bass player". Anyways, I've probably rambled enough, so I'll end on this: Music is supposed to be fun man! It's no fun if all you do is criticize it for it's flaws! (though these threads are more interesting than "what's your favorite bassline" or whatever). I'm a hypocrite.

[quote="StevenB130"]there's nothing special at all about manabe. quite honestly, he kind of sucks. but sawao's chord progressions make the songs.

[/quote]

[quote="Tatsu-Kun"][quote="StevenB130"]there's nothing special at all about manabe. quite honestly, he kind of sucks. but sawao's chord progressions make the songs.

[/quote][/quote]

Sucks compared to who?

After reading about 3% of this thread, i've come to the conclusion that it sucks. First off, steven, if you don't like it, shut up. Secondly, everyone else, shut up.

This is the internet. The mutherfucking internet. It confuses your parents, and scares your grandparents. Don't take it lightly.

Sigged

[quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="Tatsu-Kun"][quote="StevenB130"]there's nothing special at all about manabe. quite honestly, he kind of sucks. but sawao's chord progressions make the songs.

[/quote][/quote]

Sucks compared to who?[/quote]
Any non-rock guitar player. You guys give him too much credit. You don't realize how incredibly easy it is to play in a major key. As long as you don't play wrong notes, it will sound "catchy".

And tatsu, that's old and I didn't really know what I was talking about. I learn with time.

And people like that do like what's uncool and try to be different by doing so. Same thing when people die their hair all stupid.

[quote="StevenB130"]You don't realize how incredibly easy it is to play in a major key. As long as you don't play wrong notes, it will sound "catchy".[/quote]

I'll agree with you a bit on that one.

But I think this would be the mentality of most on IM:

[quote="normal people"]::Listens to TMYT, Lostman, Shiroi, Winona, Last Dinosaur, My Foot::
::grin::
::air guitar::
Hey, this song/album really kicks ass! This song is great! Manabe rocks![/quote]

[b]not:[/b]

[quote="StevenB130"]::Critically analyzes TMYT, Lostman, Shiroi, Winona, Last Dinosaur, My Foot::
Uh, well I noticed that the chord progression in the second half of the verse was this minor pentatonic influx A7 progression, which really didn't mix with the tonal output of the Mustang. I would have preferred a Jaguar for this, but only if it were...::jargon jargon:: ::analyze analyze::
Overall, I'd say this is a good song - I like it a lot. Too bad Manabe is a terrible guitarist, Jun is useless, Sawao's rhythm is too boring, and Sato isn't nearly as interesting as he was in the past.[/quote]

Yes, yes! Please analyze and critique to your heart's content! Nitpick and whine - it doesn't matter.

However, when it comes down to individual [i]enjoyment[/i] of a band or artist, leave it to preference, not technicality.

I've heard Yngwie Malmsteen. Technically, he's awesome, and he "kicks ass". But I choose not to listen to him, because I just don't like his style. Does it make me "UNEDUCATED ABOUT MUSIC AND BACH"? No, it just means that I don't like Yngwie Malmsteen.

[b]edit: I'm sure many would agree with me when I say "I don't give a shit about how "skilled" Manabe is. The music he puts out in the pillows is damn powerful, and thats all that matters.[/b]

I still can't believe I'm actually explaining this more. And yes, this entire topic idea was pretty terrible. The premise was too ambiguous - talent, or influence, or preference wasn't specified, so basically the poll is irrelavent.

wow so none of you like the pillows what are you doing here ? yeah um pretty much all of you are saying each member cant play music and saying manabe sucks at guitar, ok he doesnt suck at all yeah hes not the greatest or some god but he is still beyond being crappy by a long shot geeze people.

[quote="spartalocals"]seriously wtf it pretty much sounds LIKE ALL OF YOU HATE THE PILLOWS ?[/quote]

We don't hate them at all. StevenB, however, has some nits to pick with their style, despite the pillows being one of his favorite bands of all time. DONT DENY IT, STEVEN.

For me, Manabe's playing has been more of a disappointment lately than Sawao's. I don't expect much from Sawao other than basic rythyms. But Manabe is one of my favorite guitarists and I hold him in very high esteem.

So it is disappointing when lately his guitar work sounds generic and un-inspired. Like his solo in "Gazelle City". I like most of the guitar playing in that song, but the solo is boring and sounds like filller. His solos from his early works were so fitting to the songs. They don't have to be technically complicated. Even the very simple ones like in "Yoake ga Yattekita" and "Shiroi Natsu..." were perfect.

Considering how prolific The Pillows are, I guess it's just difficult to come up with great original guitar playing all the time. Sad really.