[quote="GoldenRhino"]I'm likin how this thread's going. CARNVAL, thanks for the great songwriting tips and general encouragement. FAWM seems like a great idea (holy shit 14 songs is ambitious), but I might give it a shot. In all the years I've been playing around with music, I haven't done a lot of "songwriting" in the traditional sense...so this will be a great opportunity to really kickstart it.

Can I offer some constructive crit on what you posted? Thanks! I like your approach to lyrics - sort of obtuse little puzzles for the listener to figure out, or interpret in various ways. I think it's much better to make an attempt at something weird and difficult than safe and cliche (although, sometimes safe and easy are just what a pop tune needs).
I did find myself having some trouble with the singing though - I'm often not really sure which notes you're trying to hit at various points, which makes it difficult for my mind to wrap around the melody you're creating. Difficult to say if it's an execution thing (just being flat or sharp), or if it's also sort of a...vagenuess-of-melody thing. Which I imagine would happen if you've got a general idea of *how* you want your melody to sound, but haven't totally nailed down exactly which tones you need to hit. But I'm presuming a lot.

Anyway, keep it up, gang. Maybe I'll share something sometime if all goes well:)[/quote]

I'm glad my tips were helpful to you. I haven't gotten to song writing until recently as well. Beforehand while I did attempt in writing songs, I would never finished them or have spent so much time on them to the point I only go back to them whenever I feel like going back to playing guitar. In the past, I would form my songs off of nursery rhymes or mimicing an artist/band sound to write a short song. But I would never considered them songs but rather neat ideas that I would have done with a song. I did attempt on writing a full song later on when I was 23, but it didn't have lyrics, and I didn't like the chord progression. I would have indeed released it today but unfortunately, I don't remember the song. I had attempts on writing full songs again when I was 25, but didn't ever finished them until I turned 26, and thankfully I released those. While certain artists like Bob Dylan, Marc Bolan, and the pillows got me into songwriting, I didn't seem confident enough to finish my songs and publish them, and I lacked a path. It wasn't until I read the articles on Matt Blick's Beatles Songwriting Academy where I read on limitations and making the songs shorter is where I've gotten inspiration to finished my older songs, and continue writing new ones.

See you on FAWM, then. I'm glad I suggested this website to you, and I hope you have a great time. Btw My handle on FAWM is rainchaser.

As for your feedback on my current song, I appreciated the feedback on it. Constructive criticism is fully welcome and encouraged. I don't recall hitting out of key notes on purpose in the melody. I was just singing along with the chords and that's how I came up with the melody. Now I did a key change from A major in the verse to A minor in the bridge. There are also several out of key chords that don't belong in the respective keys. In A major, we have Em9 and Am9. In A minor, we have the A major chord that ends the section, this is a Picardy third method, ending a minor key section/song on the root major chord. For the verses, due to the Em9 and Am9 chords this gives the melody a sort of mixolydian "feel" to it, so thus the melody feels like it's not resolving properly in its own key because of the b7 note (G in A mixolydian) in the chords of the melody. However I was expecting the bridge to be different from the verse sections. But when you listen to it, the melody is still stuck on that mixolydian vibe! The lead guitar may add to that mixolydian sound since it sounds like it's still stuck in A major. The tempo may also be a possible factor since it's pretty fast causing the melody to delay it's change to a different key.

[quote="Dewith"]
On another note, I think i mentioned something about the strumming before. I know you enjoy the strumming you do because it fits with what your going for, but I do believe it would make your songs a little "fuller," so to say, if you added some fillers when you pause strumming. It's not that one song you do this, but for most there is a lot of pausing; personally, I tend to know what to expect when you add a new song, strumming that is. Keep on recording. I really look forward to hearing some other stuff you produce! [/quote]

You're right, I've never noticed it before! Thanks for pointing that bit out!! For now on, I'll try not to pause as much as I did before.

[quote="Marekenshin"] In some ways, I get more excited by people's early tracks where a style begins to clearly emerge than I am by most professional releases. There's magic in the earlier stages of development![/quote]

On the artist I become obsessed with, I always find myself listening to their earlier work more and more. It's really interesting to hear how they started.

Thanks for the PM by the way!

[quote="CARNVAL372"]

[quote="Dewith"]
On another note, I think i mentioned something about the strumming before. I know you enjoy the strumming you do because it fits with what your going for, but I do believe it would make your songs a little "fuller," so to say, if you added some fillers when you pause strumming. It's not that one song you do this, but for most there is a lot of pausing; personally, I tend to know what to expect when you add a new song, strumming that is. Keep on recording. I really look forward to hearing some other stuff you produce! [/quote]

You're right, I've never noticed it before! Thanks for pointing that bit out!! For now on, I'll try not to pause as much as I did before.[/quote]

It hard to notice things when you're constantly listening to your own music; this is why it's nice to share it and hear feedback. There is a ton of stuff I didn't notice that someone has pointed out. Everyone has their style and signature. Keep on rocking and progressing man!

[quote="Marekenshin"]As a pro-tip, cupping a hand behind your ear will make your voice sound louder to yourself, which can be helpful in finding the right pitch when you're still working on your singing and get a little unsure sometimes. Vocal lessons are actually immensely helpful regardless of natural talent, but many people have successfully taught themselves to sing quite well just by listening careful to try and match pitch with a piano. Vocal practice feels pretty weird, but there are some techniques you can use to help make the sounds easier (I have a PDF of a somewhat oldish but quite useful book that some friends have found useful that I can send people if anyone's interested in the more technical approach to how you should use the throat and tongue to shape the sounds).

Also, I just wrote a new song this evening: https://soundcloud.com/midnight-down/mariana

Edit: Also, would love to hear what music you've been making these days, GR. :O [/quote]

Thanks for the vocal tip I will keep in mind whenever I have to sing. I would also be interested in this PDF book since sometimes my vocal tone seems to rise up after warm-ups.

I listened to your track, and everything seems to flow well the chord progression, the melody, and the lyrics. The chord progression surprised me the most though because I don't usually fancy on stock chord progressions like I-IV or I-V or even it's reversed cousins, IV-I, V-I because they've been used pretty much everywhere else to the point they sound cliche nowadays, but you were able to pull em' off very well, and that I have to give you a hand to. While I do like the lyrics, I seem to not get the message clearly. Is this a protest song? Or a song that you wrote for a friend?

Are you OK with constructive criticism?

[quote="Dewith"]It hard to notice things when you're constantly listening to your own music; this is why it's nice to share it and hear feedback. There is a ton of stuff I didn't notice that someone has pointed out. Everyone has their style and signature. Keep on rocking and progressing man![/quote]

Thanks for the help and support you've been given to my songs lately! But seriously those pauses in my songs really kept them from shining! I used techniques that fell apart because of those pauses.

Anyways here's my new [url=https://soundcloud.com/curtis-pea/notebook]song[/url]. On this one there's no pauses!

I'm also trying to improve my singing in my songs, and you'll be hearing better sound quality soon in my recordings. My Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 is coming in, and I have a better mic to use with that unit too that totally beats the shitty USB mic I've been using previously in my recordings.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]I listened to your track, and everything seems to flow well the chord progression, the melody, and the lyrics. The chord progression surprised me the most though because I don't usually fancy on stock chord progressions like I-IV or I-V or even it's reversed cousins, IV-I, V-I because they've been used pretty much everywhere else to the point they sound cliche nowadays, but you were able to pull em' off very well, and that I have to give you a hand to. While I do like the lyrics, I seem to not get the message clearly. Is this a protest song? Or a song that you wrote for a friend?

Are you OK with constructive criticism?[/quote]

I may disagree with various elements of your critique, depending, as music is pretty subjective, but I'm happy to hear your full opinion (lol sorry, just being overly literal about the words there).

The message is meant to be half-serious and half tongue-in-cheek; I am very much against authoritarian structures, regardless of who's in charge at any given point, but I am not particularly angry or distressed right now. I just had this nice droning rhythm hook going and wanted to have a line with something about "rent" in it...I was focused on writing a song from very minimal pieces with interesting melodic/rhythmic changes between the two verses rather than thinking deeply about the lyrics. It's a pop song, so the lyrics are just kind of there to feel good with the music on this one, I guess. The line about "let's burn down the government" gets a chuckle from passer-bys.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]The chord progression surprised me the most though because I don't usually fancy on stock chord progressions like I-IV or I-V or even it's reversed cousins, IV-I, V-I because they've been used pretty much everywhere else to the point they sound cliche nowadays[/quote]

I don't really know how hardass to go on this, but I disagree strongly (especially when devoid of any context. what style of music are we discussing?) I really don't see I-IV, I-V, etc as "cliche" - I see them as the [b]bread and butter[/b] of Western functional harmony. I-IV-V tunes aren't ubiquitous because musicians are lazy and unoriginal - it's because of how easily and effectively the pull the listener's ear from tension to resolution. A progression that repeats "I-bVII-iii" may have its place, [i]somewhere[/i], but unless you have a good plan for the effect that sort of progression provides, I don't think its "originality" has any special, unique appeal.

Basically I have a chip on my shoulder about this, because since actually getting into theory a little while ago, I've realized how many songs that sound fresh and genius actually have simple (seeming) harmony behind them. And as an aspiring musician, I know I have to be aware of my own ego-demon on my shoulder, whispering "It's not complex enough, original enough, moody enough". Many of my favorite songs (SEE: "THE PILLOWS") are I-IV-Vs and slight variations there of (throw a vi in there) straight through.

Side note: even when we're talking about jazz harmony, the V-I (commonly seen in a ii-V-I, or with secondary dominants) is ubiquitous, critical.

Yeah, I think having some sort of balance across the breadth of your songs is more important to your development as a musician than worrying about a particular song or technique being "overused."

A semi-related example: I really like rhymes. There was a point some years ago where GR once pointed out to me I was rhyming like...all of the lines, and maybe it would be useful to think about mixing it up more. I still probably use more rhymes than some may like, but he didn't push me away from rhymes because they are "overused," he got me thinking about HOW I used my rhymes and how to juxtapose them somewhat with more variety to give them more strength. Anyway, point being, rhymes are cliche as hell to use as well, but they feel good and you will end up using a lot of them unless you go out of your way not to (just like "stereotypical" chord progressions). Those sorts of things are not really "bad" in my mind either; it's just good to approach them with some measure of intent when you become aware of them.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]
Anyways here's my new [url=https://soundcloud.com/curtis-pea/notebook]song[/url]. On this one there's no pauses!

I'm also trying to improve my singing in my songs, and you'll be hearing better sound quality soon in my recordings. My Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 is coming in, and I have a better mic to use with that unit too that totally beats the shitty USB mic I've been using previously in my recordings. [/quote]

Liking the non pausing guitar chord song. On another note, and i know you have been working on improving your singing in songs, I felt as though on a few words that you stretched out (Go, Useless, more), you should have sung them quickly; meaning of course, you should have just said them rather than stretched out. I have the same problem with trying to sing out the "me" word. In this song, i felt as though you could get away with singing those words i pointed out short and not stretch; the chords backs the tone you were trying to project (or came close to projecting rather). Maybe if you sung those words half the length you did, then it would sounds a little better. Still, a much better song to listen to, in my opinion that is

Quality, though it does have its purpose, doesn't matter at this state of recording. I recorded a little something back in 2011 through a computer mic (by a little something, i mean 6 songs) and found ways to improve it a little.

I have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 that I got a year or so ago; I love it, and i am sure you'll enjoy yours.
Regardless (coming back to the "shitty usb mic" deal), I recorded some pretty solid quality songs through my computer mic. It was a pain in the ass, yes, but I learned from it. Don't get hell bent about not owning the best, or even mediocre, equipment

My laptop is crapperino these days - I mostly use my cell phone's "voice recorder" function or audacity with the on-board laptop mic. Shitty equipment can work, for sure!

[quote="Marekenshin"]I may disagree with various elements of your critique, depending, as music is pretty subjective, but I'm happy to hear your full opinion (lol sorry, just being overly literal about the words there). [/quote]

OK, I feel like the intro doesn't necessarily bring anything to the table. iIs just verse chords cycling over and over until the vocals are ready to come in. If you don't need an intro, just start off without it then. The pillows have also cut intros out of their songs not oftenly, but still made it effective in their songs, "This is my fashion", and "Boku wa kakera" (starts with a pickup beat, "nani ga motomo KA" are some examples.

If you do need an intro however, there are several better ways of doing this. the pillows prefer the Broadway verse method. The Broadway verse contains lyrics, melody, and instrumentation just like any other verse, but the difference here is that a Broadway verse usually contains something unique that doesn't appear anywhere else in the song. [url=http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/ticket-53-write-jazz-style-intro-verse.html]Matt Blick[/url] of Beatles Songwriting Academy blog does a much better job at describing it what it is than me. I'm going to list you some pillows songs that used this technique and explain on how they used it.

1990 Stand Up And Go - The verse that starts off the song is in free-time and there's no other instruments playing other than the vocals and lead guitar. This part never appears again in the song. Well, part of the lyrics appears again in the coda, but the whole thing is only heard at the Broadway verse. The first verse is also derived from the main verses of the song, but still I think it feels quite independent on its own due to the free-time play and limited instrumentation.

1995 The Killing Field - The song starts off with a jazzy verse with a spoken word part in it. Part of the spoken word appears again at the bridge, but the instrumentation, melody, and the rest of the spoken vocal part is only heard at the beginning.

1999 No Self Control - The song seems to start off with a normal verse, but the bass is cut out of the first verse and doesn't appear until the second verse.

1999 Bran-new Lovesong - Song starts off with vocals and rhythm guitar only, the whole band doesn't come in until the second verse.

1999 Nightmare - This seems more obvious than the other examples, this is 100% percent broadway verse, because everything is its own complete thing! It never shows anywhere else in the song and it feels like a different song.

1999 Midnight Down - Again, in similar fashion to Bran-new Lovesong, we only get the the rhythm guitar and vocals. Everything else comes in at the second verse.

2001 Good Morning Good News - Again, in similar manner to Midnight Down except that the drums are added, and then everything else comes in place at the second verse. Now the lyrics do appear again at the last verse, but that standalone guitar playing along with drums part doesn't appear again.

[quote="Marekenshin"]The message is meant to be half-serious and half tongue-in-cheek; I am very much against authoritarian structures, regardless of who's in charge at any given point, but I am not particularly angry or distressed right now. I just had this nice droning rhythm hook going and wanted to have a line with something about "rent" in it...I was focused on writing a song from very minimal pieces with interesting melodic/rhythmic changes between the two verses rather than thinking deeply about the lyrics. It's a pop song, so the lyrics are just kind of there to feel good with the music on this one, I guess. The line about "let's burn down the government" gets a chuckle from passer-bys. [/quote]

Yeah the lyrics sounded like something you wanted to get off your chest, so it seemed serious to me. For something you didn't put much emphasis on the lyrics, it sounded like you were quite focus on it! lol I guess everyone has their own take on what pop lyrics should really be. Someone said that pop lyrics should reflect on personal life that can connect with the listener's life experience.

Btw thank you for the PDF link. If I have time, I will definitely give it a read!

[quote="Dewith"]Liking the non pausing guitar chord song. On another note, and i know you have been working on improving your singing in songs, I felt as though on a few words that you stretched out (Go, Useless, more), you should have sung them quickly; meaning of course, you should have just said them rather than stretched out. I have the same problem with trying to sing out the "me" word. In this song, i felt as though you could get away with singing those words i pointed out short and not stretch; the chords backs the tone you were trying to project (or came close to projecting rather). Maybe if you sung those words half the length you did, then it would sounds a little better. Still, a much better song to listen to, in my opinion that is

Quality, though it does have its purpose, doesn't matter at this state of recording. I recorded a little something back in 2011 through a computer mic (by a little something, i mean 6 songs) and found ways to improve it a little.

I have a Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 that I got a year or so ago; I love it, and i am sure you'll enjoy yours.
Regardless (coming back to the "shitty usb mic" deal), I recorded some pretty solid quality songs through my computer mic. It was a pain in the ass, yes, but I learned from it. Don't get hell bent about not owning the best, or even mediocre, equipment [/quote]

Thank you for listening and thanks for the feedback on the song. Yeah, that approach that I did with stretching out the words is called a [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melisma]Melisma[/url]. And while i think that in some places it sounded silly, but in other places i thought it fit quite well with the context of the chords. But I think I overdosed on the melisma thing and should have used it in moderation.

My USB mic has just been giving me too much trouble. It makes too much noise and I can't record closer to my instrument. Not only that, but I have to sing in awkward positions on my microphone in order to avoid the plosives (ugh). But if the microphone was easy to do with, I would have put up with it a lot more.

Btw I've recorded another [url=https://soundcloud.com/curtis-pea/from-somewhere-nearby]song[/url]. Here, I think I over did the [url=http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/ticket-22-bluesify-your-melody.html]"flat note"[/url] singing thing on the word "how". But other than that, still tell me what you think about the song.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]OK, I feel like the intro doesn't necessarily bring anything to the table. It's just verse chords cycling over and over until the vocals are ready to come in. If you don't need an intro, just start off without it then. If you do need an intro however, there are several better ways of doing this.[/quote]

Totally feel you - the only thing going on in those two instrumental bits is a gradual alternation of dynamic between forte on the V and piano on the I...but a) having the chords drone on like that does serve a purpose, as the vocal lines have many subtle changes from phrase to phrase which are highlighted by the straight guitar part; and b) this song would ultimately be arranged with other instruments, so that wouldn't really be an issue at that point as the arrangement would let it add even more to the song. (Bonus point c) it's also a matter of taste, and I personally think that it sounds better for this style of song to start the guitar before the vocals. Like the pillows, I've written a variety of songs that start in a variety of ways. This one happens to have a very brief intro.)

[quote]Yeah the lyrics sounded like something you wanted to get off your chest, so it seemed serious to me. For something you didn't put much emphasis on the lyrics, it sounded like you were quite focus on it! lol I guess everyone has their own take on what pop lyrics should really be. Someone said that pop lyrics should reflect on personal life that can connect with the listener's life experience.[/quote]

It's definitely things I've thought about and discussed for many years now. There are things that have been bothering me lately which I bitch about to get them off my chest, but I chose not to write about them lol.

I think the quote you said about pop lyrics really can apply to lyrics in general. There's a balance to be had between personal expression and creating a vagueness onto which others can project their own experience, if you want to connect with a broad audience.

k guys, this isn't really a disclaimer as much as a "hey, this is neat": This is kinda the first tune i've written lyrics for and recorded, something that feels like enough of a "thing" that i could reasonably call it a "song" and show some people. I came up with a few ideas last night, lyrics today, figured out some basic piano this evening, and I just stepped out to my freezing car (THE VOCAL RECORDIN STUDIO) to record some singing. i'm feelin like a high five.

oh warning, i'm a sap

[url]https://soundcloud.com/gpwaltz/robin[/url]

Do you think you could post the lyrics on there? It's a bit hard to hear all of the words clearly. No complaints otherwise, nice little tune. I really like the little mostly-downwards melody phrase at around 0:34/0:35 (which repeats later) quite a lot. The way you jump up to it from down below is also really nice.

Also, are these other three tracks stuff you recorded?

[quote="Marekenshin"]clip[/quote]

Thank you!

"To our surprise, when we stepped outside
We saw six robins standing in a yard
Picking at worms, in the softening earth
Giving valediction to the frost

And then we drove to New Brighton Beach
And we watched waves lapping at our shoes
Freighters hanging in the distance
And a splash of coral, green and blue

Red breasts braced against the overcast
Slowly slouching toward the sun"

Hmm.. Just noticing all those lines starting with "and"...not sure if I like that. I may try to re-record vocals sometime, also to clear up some of those sharp/flat notes which are so much more noticeable the morning after, haha.

Yes the other tracks on my soundcloud are me, mostly screwing around in ableton. Not a lot of full tunes there.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]Just noticing all those lines starting with "and"...not sure if I like that.

And then we drove to New Brighton Beach
Watching ___ waves lapping at our shoes
Freighters hanging in the distance
under a splash of coral, green and blue[/quote]
Immediately came to mind, if you wanted to vary up those initial words without changing up the metre or anything.
Nice lyrics! I really really dig the phrase "giving valediction to the frost." That's gorgeous.

Also, dunno if you noticed, but your hans zimmer and airport food court go into each other pretty seemlessly. I dig both of them, not bad for just messing around in the abletons haha. Would love to hear a fully-arranged piece from you any time you get one worked up.