[quote="h2orowe"]
And hey, think of it this way, if the new one sucks but a bunch of kids end up liking it, you can be a smug asshole on the internet to them and shit on their happiness. There's always a [url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1045658/]silver lining[/url].[/quote]

What did he mean by this?

That there's still some form of enjoyment to be had here even for the people that end up being bitter about it, I'm guessing? Sounded a bit tongue-in-cheek. I have literally no clue as to the inclusion of the imdb link though haha.

Star Wars is the most obvious example, but there's a lot of different cases where the franchise as a whole and specific works within the franchise manage to remain popular in the face of pretty huge flops.

On the other hand, I do agree that there's something to be said for the difference between the authors of a work reopening the book on their world and other people picking up the copyright and running with it. There's a lot more reason to be wary of how things will turn out in those cases, and it gets complicated if the original author(s) aren't really on board with the reboot...but even then, it's still not necessarily a bad thing. If someone else's imagining of their world falls flat, their stands out that much more for having achieved something hard to replicate. If someone else's imagining of their world is a huge hit, their work stands out that much more for having created this springboard that others could build off of.

Just making sure we're past the "stop saying bad things about something I (or...someone?) like(s)" phase of discussion. I can't tell which posts are tongue-in-cheek and which are engaging in sincere anti-negativity smarm sometimes.

I guess I see it in a far simpler way, Mare. If the work is good, it's a good thing. If it's not, it's a bad thing. In a way, sure, new thing means new chance that said thing might be good. But when you're resurrecting a truly great, standalone work to make a sequel, you risk adding one more cheap copy to the massive pile of soulless, unnecessary sequels, and I'd rather they not do that with this title.

I don't think FLCL needs or can even benefit from a sequel, but I'm happy to be proved wrong--or to see a new FLCL work that's only loosely connected to the original.

Anyway, best girl coming through.
[img]http://45.media.tumblr.com/8b395278163f48ea207123ea7e6676b0/tumblr_n1zyccFaoF1qaj0tto1_500.gif[/img]

I wouldn't call recognition of the subjective nature of experience "anti-negativity smarm," so much as I'd consider it a mature and refined approach to engaging with art, lol.

I mean, what is "good art?" At the end of the day, there is no set definition, so all these discussions of tragic "bad" remakes are just, at their core, expressions of individual taste.

Sharing our taste is helpful in finding others who will be able to contribute recommendations that we enjoy, thus expanding our experience, and other such social calibrations, but it should be pretty obvious that there's no problem of "anti-negativity smarm" to be found pretty much anywhere. When we go past sharing taste and into bashing the taste of others, trying to convince people of why something is "better/worse" than another thing, or any other such aggressive approach, we end up with a situation where tension and arguments happen for no reason.

Nobody gains anything from party-pooping, except validation that some people agree with their tastes. You get that already just by expressing your opinions and the aspects you liked/disliked, but when we move past discussing taste and into arguing it, what is gained is quickly overshadowed by a lot of silly negativity.

I'm not trying to be preachy here, but maybe that makes the position a little clearer? Celebrating subjevtivity isn't really the same thing as raining on other people's parades, not sure why we're (people in general) trying to reduce a complex, subjective topic to black and white objectivity so often, lol.

Edit: this is getting rather abstracted from the topic of an FLCL sequel, though, lol, which we can only speculate about for now. I fear you may very well be right and it may end up being something I don't find nearly as worthwhile as the original, but I guess time will tell. At this point, since I never even expected a sequel, I don't feel any emotional investment towards how it ends up being, one way or the other, so much as I'm thinking "that's pretty neat and might be decent or better, with luck!"

The anti-negativity smarm is this: if you can't say anything nice about something, don't say anything at all, or you're being an asshole to people who like it. It's an attitude that pops up often and is expressed in a variety of ways. Phrases like "party-pooping", "raining on other people's parades," and "bitter" in reference to sharing negative opinions, if you want recent examples. It comes off as a concern about tone and niceness, but in effect it just limits the discussion.

Sharing critical opinions about a piece of art (in a forum dedicated to sharing and discussion news and opinions) is not an affront to the people who like said art. If it feels like it is, it's the offended people who are not approaching art maturely.

edit: I had a lot more to say about this, but let's leave it simple. And by the way, I never once called any of my opinions objective. It goes without saying that views expressed about goodness or badness of art are opinions. Please cease this brutal assault on Straw-Jolmes. Remember, I haven't even said anything negative yet! Only shared concerns and [b][i]opinions[/i][/b] about the validity of sequels.

Oh, but Ninamori is objectively best girl. All Mamimi/Haruko parties/parades officially pooped/rained on... with no rescheduling!

I'll have more to say about the actual work when more details are known.

Oh good god. [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpd2HYRGTVc[/url]

This the IM-iest thread in quite some time: tone-policing [i]before[/i] we have an actual product to judge - when we have nearly zero details to work with. Does everyone have their "Subjectivity is personal and therefore worth very little in a discussion" Free Space checked off?

Honestly, I'm glad this conversation is happening between Mare and someone who is not me - hopefully we will be able to figure out why we keep having these kinds of disagreements about pillows-related media. It seems to me like you don't really recognize or give weight to the feelings of disappointment, disillusionment, or even betrayal (I know, strong word) that fans have when their favorite artists let them down - as long as [i]you're[/i] having a good time. I've often been told by you on this forum that when I dislike a new release by the pillows, I should lay low to avoid harshing anyone else's buzz. And for what it's worth, you do follow you own rules when it comes to music you don't like: you keep it brief, you say something like "not my cup of tea" and leave it there - that's fine, it's your prerogative when it comes to how critical you want to be. And sure, on a very surface level, I'm down with the idea that "New pillows albums and Star Wars movies (no matter how good or bad!) are better than no new pillows albums and Star Wars movies!" - but the discussion doesn't end there.

What is often lacking in your reactions to other members' hesitation about new works is an understanding that we're also significantly invested (emotionally, at least!) in the success of new material. When a new single comes out and you feel [b]excited[/b] that your heroes are still kicking ass and writing moving songs, other people feel [b]disappointment, loss, and disillusionment[/b] - and you gotta respect that. The highs and the lows are part of fandom itself. Being emotionally invested for better or worse is part of being a pillows fan, a Harry Potter fan, a Murakami fan.

So when you accuse Jomei or me of "party-pooping" or "negativity"...or of having an 'immature' approach of appreciating art...it feels like in our dissent/hesitation, we have becoming Hater Automatons in your eyes, whose only purpose is to bring everyone down. But that's clearly not what's happening! Sure, I [i]could[/i] listen to the new pillows album, think it's bad music, and then discuss it with nobody - but that's not how I experience being a fan.

And media criticism is [i]actually important to me[/i]. Critical analysis is enjoyable for me because it illuminates and broadens the experience of art! We can talk about the following:
- How's the song writing? Does it feel fresh or stale?
- How's the technique? Can Sawao still sing?
- What do you think about the production and mastering?
- What do you think the pillows are [i]going for[/i]? Do they succeed?
- Is the sound of this band evolving? Are they taking creative risks? Phoning it in?
- What does this work contribute to the genre? Where is its place?

These are all things I want to talk about when it comes to the pillows, and I'll be happy to engage with that discussion when Rebuild of FLCL comes out. We talk about these things because, as Jomei said, we believe the products artists make matter. If it's good, that's a good thing, if it's bad, that's a bad thing. It also comes from a place of feeling protective of the art we love. Everyone here wants "what's best" for the pillows and for FLCL. It's just that when people like me are told to condense our opinions (and actual emotions) into worthless phrases like "Not my cup of tea", it's...kind of shitty.

edit: consider this: the most interesting conversation we could be having isn't "Is Happy Bivouac a 9.5 or a 9.8 album? The most interesting conversation we could have is "[b]Is Happy Bivouac a 3 or a 9 album[/b]?" I don't come here to circlejerk and pat everyone on the back for having the same Fave Band who will be cranking out bangers (or at least nearly-bangers!) until they die. I come here to actually engage.

double posting because fuck the system, and it's a diff topic.

[quote="Jomei"][quote]Pulling from the last few albums in an FLCL sequel would be the most logical thing to do, I don't know why we'd expect anything else. Ignoring years of recent pop rock by the pillows in favor of "old classics" would also be sort of insulting to the band. Remember how Sawao always says his favorite pillows song is whatever the new single is? Same logic here.[/quote]

Expect is the wrong word. Hope. I'm hoping the director prefers that era of pillows, which absolutely suited FLCL better than the newer sounds would. Does anybody deny that? Basically what you're saying is "They'll do the right thing for marketing" and I'm hoping they'll do the right thing artistically.

It's also hardly insulting to the band to choose selectively from their massive discography. This isn't a pillows PV. Directors [i]usually[/i] pick music that's [i]right for the work[/i], not just whatever new single an artist is hoping to promote in [current year]. When studios wanted to use REM, they went for Man on the Moon or It's the End of the World, regardless of whatever was on REM's latest album.[/quote]

I'm not sure how much/if we actually disagree here. Simply put, I believe the director will make choices they think are "good" and "make sense". We all hope we end up enjoying those good, sensible ideas.

My hesitation though, is that I can't really envision a good, sensible idea that is also [b]realistic[/b]. Consider: a sequel to FLCL. The animation has changed. The characters have changed a bit! There are new plot points. It's not just "more FLCL", it's a slightly new take on FLCL altogether - it's coming from writers and animators who have changed in those 15 or so years.

So what doesn't make sense to me, is how you'd match up an "evolved" FLCL with a soundtrack that's stuck in the late 90s. I'm not saying that late 90s alt/pop/rock isn't "trendy" enough for today's anime - it's just that it seems like a strange mashup.

Having the exact same tracklist seems a little strange. So what do you do? Do you just cherry-pick the same-era songs that weren't used in the original? Keep ROSS? Dip into Smile and TYMT?

Honestly, the thing that seems most realistic to me is the pillows recording a bit of incidental music, maybe using some instrumentals, having more non-pillows music on the OST (Rever's Edge, anyone?), and commissioning the pillows for new OP/ED tunes. I don't know. FLCL was a new series with new music. Will FLCL 2: Electric Foogaloo be a new series with old music?

[quote="GoldenRhino"]So what doesn't make sense to me, is how you'd match up an "evolved" FLCL with a soundtrack that's stuck in the late 90s. I'm not saying that late 90s alt/pop/rock isn't "trendy" enough for today's anime - it's just that it seems like a strange mashup.

Having the exact same tracklist seems a little strange. So what do you do? [b]Do you just cherry-pick the same-era songs that weren't used in the original?[/b] Keep ROSS? [b]Dip into Smile and TYMT?[/b][/quote]

I see what you're saying. It depends a lot on what they're actually planning to do with this. Sure, some things about the creators will have changed, but if they're calling this work "FLCL," I have to imagine it will at least evoke some of the same themes and tones of the original, and I think the late '90s era pillows music still fits. There's plenty they haven't used yet, plus, as you mention, albums that are close to the same sounds that came out later, and there's always the possibility some songs will return. Bolded what seem like good and realistic options to me.

[quote]Honestly, the thing that seems most realistic to me is the pillows recording a bit of incidental music, maybe using some instrumentals, having more non-pillows music on the OST (Rever's Edge, anyone?), and commissioning the pillows for new OP/ED tunes. I don't know. FLCL was a new series with new music. Will FLCL 2: Electric Foogaloo be a new series with old music?[/quote]

Maybe. Like I said, it depends what fits... if they're doing it right. But I'm not sure I want to see an FLCL series that fits the recent pillows discography. (Mamimi follows Naota's brother to America, and they both become Westaboos in cowboy hats and speak with a Texas drawl!) Maybe a different band really would be better, but we're evaluating shadows here.

Misinterpretation city up here. Let's make assumptions and run with them over asking for clarification as to the scope of statements, right?

[quote]When we go past sharing taste and into bashing the taste of others, trying to convince people of why something is "better/worse" than another thing, or any other such aggressive approach, we end up with a situation where tension and arguments happen for no reason.[/quote]
This is not "tone policing," it's saying "there's a nice middle ground that is more productive for discussion that we can slip out of when people forget the subjectivity of things or get too heated about the validity of their opinions." The reference to "raining on people's parades" was in respect to "tone policing," if you re-read my post; I was basically agreeing with the existence of "anti-negativity smarm," as that's really just the opposite extreme of creating tension and arguments for no reason, isn't it? I was trying to clarify that I agree that the goal is not "don't say negative things about a thing," but that my personal though is, as always, "maybe let's not push it past the point of worthwhile conversation, because that gets silly and causes pointless arguments." Nobody likes beating a dead horse, one direction or the other, and I wasn't trying to start an argument or anything, just clarify what I personally was trying to express there in case it was unclear...although it seems that it still didn't go over completely clearly.

I definitely don't believe I have engaged in any beating on "Straw-Jolmes," but please let me know where I've said anything that is trying to stir up shit here, because coming back to a slew of huge posts of this sort is a bit confusing.

I realize that this is a similar area to the arguments I had with GR about being overbearing about people justifying their taste or whatever, but this is not at all the same conversation - I'm just aspie as fuck and very consistent:

- I believe that subjective taste causes most if not all art to have merit, regardless of my personal opinion
- I also think that a middle ground where unnecessary fights over taste are avoided is good
Thus, I stated and expanded upon the reasoning for my belief that sequels/reboots/remakes/rerecordings/etc. are something to generally be more optimistic about than not. I agreed that this may be pretty disappointing, and just wanted to point out that there may be silver linings even if we all think it's awful.

@GR: As always, I challenge you to provide direct quotes that, in full context, actually show me "accusing you/Jomei" of party-pooping here, buddy boyo. Show me where I have ever told anyone "to condense their opinions (and actual emotions) into worthless phrases like 'Not my cup of tea'."

Hooooooooooly poopmonkeys and dramanuts, you guys. I feel like yeah, h2o could have not made that little barbed remark, and that may have set things into a slightly defensive mindset here, but gott damn is this out of hand for literally no good reason all of a sudden.

Doubleposting because lol why not, I just want to point out that these accusations will fade away without GR finding anything, just like when he accused me of "telling people they had to like the new albums" or some other hyperbolic garbage.

Please, dude, just calm down and consider that maybe if you had decided to not fly off the handle here with your silly assumptions, accusations, and grudging...maybe the thread would have just had one more simple clarification of myself to Jolmes and then right back on topic? Apparently it's tone police to say "haters gonna hate, I think there's value, cool gg everyone," but flying off the handle about how people saying that are...tone policing...is not tone policing policing????? That's not even telling people "stop hating" or anything.

I don't understand why I'm always being accused of not letting go when I can't even have a freaking discussion about anything on this forum without you literally jumping right back into that. Chill out. Calm down. Let it go. Be easy. Be well. I'm putting you back on my ignore list on this forum for a bit to just check your posts for blatant rule-breakings and otherwise just let you do your thing in "peace" for a while again, because this always goes insane whenever you think it's even possible that I'm trying to start a freaking e-fight with you. Apparently if I'm recognizing your existence in threads from weeks ago, I'm talking about you again now.

Good. Fucking. God.

You even managed to be the straw that broke LH's back, but you still can't just chill out a bit?

Peace, mang. Farewell, be well.

[b]EDIT: SUPER-SECRET TL:DR LESS-ISH-DRAMA SHORT-VERSION: APPARENTLY STATING THE OPINION THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO GO TOO FAR IN EXPRESSING YOUR NEGATIVITY, IN PASSING, IS TONE POLICING, OR SOMETHING, BECAUSE IF YOU CANNOT BE CONVINCED TO AGREE WITH SOMEONE, YOU ARE NOT SIMPLY HOLDING CONSISTENTLY DIFFERING OPINIONS, BUT ARE RATHER TRYING TO IMPOSE YOUR OPINIONS ON EVERYONE ELSE.

EVEN THOUGH THE ACT OF HOLDING THOSE CONSISTENTLY DIFFERING OPINIONS AND DISCUSSING THEM IS APPARENTLY WHAT THE GR IS ALL ABOUT. I KNOW. IT'S CONFUSING AND OLD TO ME, TOO.[/b]

I'm back to talking about FLCL remakes. Jesus.

The thing is Mare, I'm going to go further and say that there's nothing wrong with arguing with someone's opinion, either. Going as far as telling them "This is better than that" is ok, even if you think it's aggressive or unpleasant. Discussing the reasons why we think different ways is interesting and gets us into the meat of art! I agree, we should not push things past the boundary of worthwhile conversation, but I think that line goes as far as people in a discussion are willing to take it while staying within commonly understood civility--that is, expressing views on a subject without making personal attacks. (The possible exception to this being trolling, as in saying things one doesn't necessarily think just to antagonize people, but I don't think anyone here is doing that.)

There's a lot to be gained from warring opinions. A work's merits or lack thereof might become clearer to one or both parties, or they might simply become better able to understand and articulate their own views.

But again, the slipping in of this rhetoric about "bitter" people, raining on parades, "being a smug asshole and shitting on their happiness" etc. isn't helpful. In fact, this devaluing of opinions is far more negative and detrimental to discussion than the critical opinions themselves. It starts to make judgments on the opinion-holders rather than the opinions, which, from my perspective, is what's causing tension.

Those warring opinions ARE useful, you're right. It's great for, as I said, various sorts of social calibration (and learning/growing in general, really). One aspect of that is discussing people's opinions on how far pessimism/optimism is useful, how repeatedly being vocally positive/negative about a thing is usful, etc.

I can't speak for h2o, but I haven't been trying to throw assumed intent on any individuals with my language here, just discussing opinions about opinions. It's fine to tell someone that a thing is better/worse, I think it's a bit different to antagonizingly either attempt to convince them that you are correct and they are not or to ask that they validate their opinion to you. That, in my opinion, clearly goes into the "not useful" territory pretty quickly, and those are things that have happened here in the past.

The fact that those have happened specifically on this forum in relation to the pillows' music seems to be muddling conversation about hypotheticals and opinions over here a little bit. My use of "bitter" was not meant to point fingers at anyone in this forum as best as I can recall, just hypotheticals of haters that might hate and not see the silver linings.

I apologize for the fact that I'm always over-wordy and unclear with how I express my thoughts, but lols, yeah, definitely not really looking to open separate cans of worms so much as just kind of making side conversation about a sub-topic of communication and information exchange and yadda yadda. Interesting aspect of how people develop themselves, and there's a lot of weird and unnecessary inter-fan anger that develops sometimes that I just happen to be a strong proponent of actively avoiding, as it's kind of the buddhist middle way zen approachamabobber and I am a broken record when it comes to topics I enjoy expounding upon.

Edit: Ballsballs, I did not get back on topic. Seriously, I really really really like thinking about how people work - and most of how people work is configurations of data they share and reconfigure with each other through discussion, etc. etc. Good shit, really.

[quote="Marekenshin"]One aspect of that is discussing people's opinions on how far pessimism/optimism is useful, how repeatedly being vocally positive/negative about a thing is usful, etc. I can't speak for h2o, but I haven't been trying to throw assumed intent on any individuals with my language here, [b]just discussing opinions about opinions.[/b][/quote]

We could get far more deeply into this, but this, right here, is what I think is derailing things. Unless someone's objectively over a line of civility, shifting the discussion to this meta-discourse philosophy is the problem. In this thread, it's particularly pernicious because no one has even said anything particularly negative--mere hesitation, simple failure to 110% gung-ho wham bang boom endorse anything and everything without reservation, consideration, or evaluation is being insinuated to be too negative.

[quote="Jomei"]In fact, this devaluing of opinions is far more negative and detrimental to discussion than the critical opinions themselves. It starts to make judgments on the opinion-holders rather than the opinions, which, from my perspective, is what's causing tension.[/quote]

Yeah, and what's more, is that it's boring as fuck and can make this forum stale. Thankfully, Mare is the only one who raises this issue. So I think we're mostly discussing a problem that manifests as Mare's long-winded digressions into this art and subjectivity shit, mixed with 'if you don't have anything nice to say.' It's annoying and derailing, but it tends not to be a problem that people (plural) have on this forum. We're mostly in the clear.

I don't have much to [url=http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/f.gif]say[/url] re: Mare's latest Mare-post, only that I find it amusing and obvious as fuck that Mare takes pains to apologize to Jomei when Jomei disagrees with him (at least twice in this thread) - but me? I get that mess in response. Sometimes it goes overboard, like what the hell, actually:

[quote="other thread"]"(Either way, Jolmes-kun, you are the energy to which I move bb~ )"[/quote]

Like, Jomei and I disagree [i]the same amount[/i], but he's the one getting the homoerotic kowtowing? What gives?

edit: thiiiis close to making a new thread, challenging Mare to argue that the world is better with The Phantom Menace.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]edit: thiiiis close to making a new thread, challenging Mare to argue that the world is better with The Phantom Menace.[/quote]
Now, I'm not really a Star Wars fan, but the sword fight at the end was pretty cool.

[size=50](semi trolling, semi srs)[/size]