Lighten up. While Camio may not realize exactly what AS is, he does have a general point in that people are quick to judge their shortcomings and/or faults as a disease or disorder rather than just accepting themselves for who they are.

thanks blank. I suprised sheer didnt pick up the point. I'm not surprised mare didnt though.

sincerely,
domestic terrorist

[quote="Blank"]Lighten up. While Camio may not realize exactly what AS is, he does have a general point in that people are quick to judge their shortcomings and/or faults as a disease or disorder rather than just accepting themselves for who they are.[/quote]

I wasn't so concerned with whether the guy has Asperger's or not. The main thing is that, given the Vines' obscurity, and given their venue of Letterman, freaking out like they did was probably the worst thing they could have done with that show.

Maaaaybe that sort of shit could be excusable if 1) They were a decently-known, well-liked band. 2) They were at a venue where they had lots of fans right in front of them, rather than a studio audience who likely doesn't give a damn, sitting down. 3) Their music was better, to justify letting shit hit the fan.

I don't think sheer or I were saying anything like "That dude is disabled, therefore, the music/performance is understandably shitty."

[quote="Camio"]thanks blank. I suprised sheer didnt pick up the point. I'm not surprised mare didnt though.

sincerely,
domestic terrorist[/quote]

It's not so much that I didn't get the point, Camio. It was only that the point was irrelevant - no one said anything about disorders excusing behavior. However, mental disorders are real clinical phenomena; they are not a mere explanation of peccadillos, and many of them are as handicapping as a severed spinal cord. Anyway, who did you think you're talking to, Camio? The guy who [i]hasn't[/i] proven himself to stress personal responsibility above all else?

[quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="Blank"]Lighten up. While Camio may not realize exactly what AS is, he does have a general point in that people are quick to judge their shortcomings and/or faults as a disease or disorder rather than just accepting themselves for who they are.[/quote]

I wasn't so concerned with whether the guy has Asperger's or not. The main thing is that, given the Vines' obscurity, and given their venue of Letterman, freaking out like they did was probably the worst thing they could have done with that show.

I don't think sheer or I were saying anything like "That dude is disabled, therefore, the music/performance is understandably shitty."[/quote]

And GR hits the nail on the head, while Camio goes for a swing and a miss.

allright

him freaking out on letterman is only bad if your values are such. It's not a scientific fact that A+B= good performance, it's a matter of preference. You can argue it up and down but it all boils down to preference.

Craig's performance was different and I felt very genuine. He went onto national TV and didnt hold back I admire that. The performance ended up being really in your face and exciting.

none of us really know how much his asbergers played into his performance. However, I dont think you can blame it just as you cant blame someone for welling up singing a song about their dead father. As for excusing It doesnt excuse it, provided you believe it needs to be excused.

it was different and exciting and I think affords some respect because if music is about expression that was a very expressive performance.

thats what I was trying to say before we went on the brutal tangents.

Stage antics are good only to the point where they don't detract from the quality of the music. His performance lessened the quality of their sound. His stage antics did not add to the quality of the performance. I don't care whether he has Aspergers or not, and am not blaming it on that.

Some guitarists can throw a stage tantrum while kicking out a badass guitar solo, therefore making the performance badass.

Some guitarists have such notoriety, stage presence, popularity (things built up by skill), that they can get away with doing stuff like what happened on that Letterman performance. Usually, it's backed up with good music or something engaging.

The Vines, in that show were: abrasive and annoying.
An even louder, crazier band, Ging Nang Boyz: abrasive, yet [b]engaging and melodic[/b] (most of the time).

If you do it at all, this is how you do it right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcz5uhcBawY
Crank that volume.

well, despite what's been brought up before, I'd like to bring up something about Nicholls. quoted from wiki:

"During a promotional show for Triple M radio, bass player Patrick Matthews walked off stage after Nicholls bleated at the audience and demanded that the crowd not talk during the performance. Nicholls said to the crowd,"Why the fuck are you laughing? You're all a bunch of sheep. Can you go baa?" Nicholls was even accused of kicking a photographer and charges were pressed. As a result, Patrick Matthews never played with The Vines again (he has since joined Youth Group) and Triple M banned The Vines from being played on their radio station indefinitely. Nicholls was accompanied by his brother Matt, and his manager and friend Andy Kelly in Balmain Local Court in Sydney on 19 November 2004. There it was revealed that Nicholls has Asperger's Syndrome.This had been suspected by Nicholls' guitar technician, English roadcrew veteran Tony Bateman, who had toured with The Cure, Sisters Of Mercy and Black Sabbath. He suspected that there was something clinically different with Nicholls and downloaded information about Asperger's Syndrome, later handing it over to Andy Kelly. The judge dropped all charges against Nicholls on the condition that he sought immediate treatment."

If his Asperger's 'wasn't a big deal', there's no way the judge would have excused him from any legal punishment. As sheer has already said, personality disorders can be extremely debilitating and can be hazardous to the person with the disorder as well as people around them. So I'm calling bullshit on using it as an excuse to get out of any legal repercussions but being totally adamant against admitting it affects him in any way. Personality disorders are very often the reasoning behind strange or violent behavior, as it could very well be in this case. So call it 'expressive' or whatever, but he obviously has a tendency to take it too far make a total ass of himself, which caused their original bassist to leave. I don't know about you, but I'd rather acknowledge that a person's disorder is causing this kind of behavior, instead of it being because he's....well...an ass.

at GR: well that's the studio version played over some live clips. (I kinda doubt Abiko can play a bass line correctly while being german suplexed) They toned their antics down a bit as of late, but the antics (see mic munching) were getting pretty annoying to me personally. Don't get me wrong, I love gnb. But there were live shows where a guitar/bass/vocal part was cut short, or messed up due to their antics on stage, almost to the point where ALL you can hear is Murai drumming, and I find that a bit vexing.

[quote="skoolyardpunk"]at GR: well that's the studio version played over some live clips. (I kinda doubt Abiko can play a bass line correctly while being german suplexed) They toned their antics down a bit as of late, but the antics (see mic munching) were getting pretty annoying to me personally. Don't get me wrong, I love gnb. But there were live shows where a guitar/bass/vocal part was cut short, or messed up due to their antics on stage, almost to the point where ALL you can hear is Murai drumming, and I find that a bit vexing.[/quote]

Yeah, I was aware it was the studio version over live clips, but...hm, I guess it's sort of a bad example. DISREGARD THAT.

You don't have to look for obscure Japanese bands to get the point across. It's pretty much well-established who the greatest "live" acts are: the Who, Queen, the Rolling Stones...

Anyone can create a great stage performance, and anyone can create a great musical performance. What qualifies these bands is their ability to do both, without sacrificing either.

Sheer, since you almost always only give a toss about classic rock bands, why do you spend so much time posting on a forum for obscure Japanese ones?

The difference between a band like GNB and The Vines is that GNB's craziness stems from their music and attitude, whereas with The Vines it seems contrived, as though they're trying too hard. I found his vocals to be far more cheesy and fake than the stage antics, though.

Actually, this is a forum for ONE Japanese band in particular, the fact that most of us also like other Japanese bands is of no importance.

[quote="ThinlineTele"]Sheer, since you almost always only give a toss about classic rock bands, why do you spend so much time posting on a forum for obscure Japanese ones?

The difference between a band like GNB and The Vines is that GNB's craziness stems from their music and attitude, whereas with The Vines it seems contrived, as though they're trying too hard. I found his vocals to be far more cheesy and fake than the stage antics, though.[/quote]

Mare already said it, but this isn't a forum for obscure Japanese rock bands - just one obscure Japanese rock band, which happens to be one of my favorite bands. Maybe you took a wrong turn on Weeaboo (did I say that right?) Highway, but I'm right where I belong.

I was only trying to be objective. It's hard to be objective when you use obscure references that are arguable and subjective. When you use examples that are well-established, there is more integrity and truth to your point.

[quote="ThinlineTele"]
The difference between a band like GNB and The Vines is that GNB's craziness stems from their music and attitude, whereas with The Vines it seems contrived, as though they're trying too hard. I found his vocals to be far more cheesy and fake than the stage antics, though.[/quote]

funny I was gonna say pretty much the same thing but with the bands switched around.

imo GNB sounds more contrived than the vines since they sound like taking messy early garage hardcore punk and adding some obligatory japanese poppiness. If it werent for their crazy stage presence they really wouldnt be anything special.


Nugget of wisdom for the day:
any band with crazy stage presence that you dont like will seem like they're "trying to hard" and any band that you like that has crazy stage presence is going to be very genuine.

[i] Man did you see how Nirvana trashed the stage on SnL? Yeah, Guns n Roses was so much better. Nirvana just tries to hard.[/i]