Yeah, couldn't think of a title, but instead of spamming up the now listening to thread, I felt it best to continue elsewhere...
Anyway, GR, maybe I'm confusing your point, but here goes...
[quote="GoldenRhino"]Not to derail, but could you guys say a little bit more than "I disagree?" Advertising is a multi-billion dollar industry because it's been proven to affect how people *act* - what we buy, how we shape our identity, what causes we support, even how we view our own bodies (too fat, too scrawny, not masculine/feminine enough). The vast majority of us see more manufacted men and women on TV/online/films/magazines than *real people* every day. [/quote]

Advertising=/=music. It's obvious that advertising shapes society. That is the point of advertising, and as you said, it is proven to be true. My argument was simply that it's a pet peave of mine to blame societal problems on the media....media is a product of society. Society, that is to say, people, came before music, movies, video games, etc. Therefore, we have been behaving in human ways before all of these things. Normal people don't look to these things to guide their behavior, they turn to them for entertainment value. Yes, this has turned into a negative. Yes, we have, in the words of Neil Postman, "amused ourselves to death." But at it's core, (ideally, normally, whatever...) people don't make music to guide people. They don't seek to be role models. True, music appeals to emotion, to the soul, people feel and relate to music. But just as I hate to hear and don't accept that violent video games lead to violence in kids, or more accurately, that we can't blame violent video games for that, we can't blame music for negative actions of the listeners. It's like blaming Columbine on Marilyn Manson.

[quote]Modern mainstream hip hop, like *all music genres*, sells an image. Tyler, to Common, to Nicki Minaj, to Macklemore all try to create and sell a version of "authenticity" in their own ways. Tyler the Creator does not exist in a vacuum. Tyler requires the context of modern hip hop to create his own version of authenticity, and make it sellable. A snapshot of modern hip hop culture is not a snap shot of actual modern black youth culture. Most people who buy hip hop are suburban white kids because they're attracted to the exoticism of wanton materialism and machismo. Kanye West is not real. The same is true for metal bands, or 'indie' rockers, and country stars. Our society is dominated by manufactured, meticulously designed images of people - and its cyclical. To dismiss media as a 'byproduct' of 'societal behavior' is to be a cultural dupe and be ignorant to the fact that you're always being bought and sold on identities, all the time. The example may seem silly, but I think it's totally legit[/quote]

It is true, that celebs/singers/rappers are all about the image. This is why we see West rapping about all of his "benzes" etc. However, my argument is simply that Tyler's image isn't that of a rapist. Song content can be absolute nonsense, which is what I take most of Tyler's stuff to be. (My brother listens to him a lot and their are just some crazy/wierd/nonsense statements.) If you don't take that kind of shit at face value, you'll have a better time. I'm not saying that you're calling Tyler a rapist, or that you think what he sings is the truth, but what I'm getting is that you are saying that his songs add to a negative, violent persona which can negatively influence listeners. Like I said, I don't know if I have this right, but it is that point I argue against.

[quote]On one hand, guitars are guitars are guitars. They are instruments designed to make pretty sounds in slightly different ways, with some attention to aesthetics. But that's not nearly the end of the story. Every guitar is informed by a history of who has traditionally used the bodyshape, and what it 'means' to use that guitar. Are you a wholesome gentleman, or are you a metal-chugging sleazeball? [/quote]
Two problems I have with this...I've seen that picture before and have gotten a chuckle out of it both times (this time and the last). But that's it. Maybe it's something about my nature, but I don't take it seriously. Just as not all people who play the Ibanez on the far left are repugnant individuals (case in point, Joe Satriani), not all people who play Strats or semi-hollows are super nice guys. It's merely a funny little cartoon. A metalhead can and has played strats, I've heard jazz/fusion guitarists playing super strats. Sure it's true that we label certain guitars certain ways, and associate them with certain genres, but that shouldn't be extrapolated to the players. If I recommend someone who wants to play blues a semi-hollow, it is solely on the fact that the tones that they will achieve with a semi-hollow will be that of other traditional blues players, as that's what they usually play. I'm talking purely tone. They could still be the biggest dick in the world.


[quote]And I don't want to imply that critical awareness of advertising and mass media in any way "frees" you from its power. We're pretty much always affected by this stuff.

edit: [b]Also. It is totally okay to like Tyler, Kanye, or whoever you want. I am not against enjoying the music you enjoy. All I wanted to address in this discussion was that we try real hard to identify *what is new/fresh* and what is the same old shit in a new package.[/b] Tyler and other hip hop artists have a *world* of other shit to be talking about. Literally *anything* should be fair game. Any. Topic. But we get more violence, sexism, etc. (some of the time, not all the time). And then there are the less-tread topics, like mental health, so kudos to that. But just realize that when you say "fresh," you may be talking more about the persona, or the delivery, or the sharpness of the lyricism, not the actual lyrical content. And that's okay.[/quote]

I agree. Society, or at least America, has come to a point where we are all-consumed. We are under the sway of the media trying to impose their agenda, and we are under control from the upper crust which make legislation that leads our lives and often benefit the big companies and media outlets. We are the small guys, and there is little power we have short of getting out or totally rejecting the norm and living on a commune or in the dessert in an RV or something, which is obviously undesirable and oft not possible for one reason or another.

And finally, regarding the last point, I would in some way or another agree as well. The describing words of music are worn out. Everything is fresh and new, but the truth is it's all been done before. That said, Tyler is an offshoot. The norm is not Tyler, when he first came out, I was like "Who is this guy?" He doesn't just blend into the background or appear like the rest of the hip hop community.
In that same vain, it's not an artists fault for not being "new" and "original." That's not to celebrate or accept mundane music. But the fact is, all over the world, we have people creating music. It's the same argument that is brandied against rock music from time to time. "It's all been done before, band x sounds like band y, they're not doing anything new, etc." But in my opinion, this shouldn't detract from entertainment value. There are only so many notes in a scale, so many chords in a key, so many electronic pings on a soundboard to create a beat. Lyrics are what separates everyone...a song can be totally rejuvinated with a different set of lyrics. The same exact song instrumentally will be a different song if there are different lyrics, different deliviery, different emotion behind them.

Honestly I just think the ideas that movies, music, video games, and advertising affect the way we treat each other as human beings are all mutually exclusive. You can't validate one without validating them all. If that were the case no one would mock the NRA. Tyler, or any other celebrity for that matter, maybe has a 0.00001% chance (Evangelionlol) of influencing someone to the point of raping a girl that he is in love with. Plus, if some whitey from the burbz is too stupid to realize that Tyler is mocking themes like this, and even conversations like this, then such a fucktard isn't even worth discussing. It'd probably be his parents' fault anyway. Also, the song IFHY is about two of his fictional alter egos WOLF and Sam. And more specifically the lyric GR initially quoted isn't about stalking; it's about dying and haunting Salem and her new boyfriend. Probably.