[quote="Dewith"]

First off, thank you very much for your listening and great feedback. Daydream does have a long intro; unfortunately, I had to piece the song together (note wise) to make it work and not make the intro rushed. I wasn't thinking of Zelda when I wrote Felo De Se, but I can totally hear what your saying. [/quote]

Is there a reason why you needed an intro? Afaik, you don't need an intro to piece a song together, just a verse, chorus, and maybe a bridge. Try choosing a song structure first that will make things a lot easier. The most common ones are verse/chorus, AABA, and AAA. For verse/chorus is just that, verse and chorus, but you can add a bridge to it if you like but it's usually not necessary. AABA is just verse/verse/bridge/verse, no chorus. The title of the song usually appears in the beginning or the end of the verse. But sometimes it will appear in the bridge too. AAA is just verse/verse/verse, no bridge nor chorus. Daydream's intro is just a guitar solo over the verse melody, and there's nothing wrong with that of course. However, I feel it drags the song a bit as an intro, and I think an intro should be a special section that doesn't appear anywhere else in the song. You can also reuse a section of the song (usually the outro) as an intro but add something to it that doesn't appear anywhere else in the song. Having an intro that stands-out from the rest of the sections of the song is the key to having a good intro.

[quote="Dewith"]


I do agree that Plank had excessive repeats and I had planned to play harmonica in the ending but didn't get around to it; this leads me to my next statement. I should have labeled this as a DEMO album as opposed to an album. To be completely honest, I rushed majority of the songs and was just very excited to hear it as a whole. I do, however, believe that some intros are needed to be a little longer than the standard in order to paint the mood or suspense. Obviously the people who listen to my material aren't expecting groundbreaking hits, due to the fact that I'm a "nobody," after patiently listening to a longer intro and that's okay. [/quote]

Lol, If I knew this album was a demo, I would have told you to finish it, so it becomes a complete album! You shouldn't rush songs/albums, because they will stay unfinished. Demos are kind of like an idea of where the song is going. It's useful for collaborating with a songwriter but that's not your main purpose i think. Unless you want us to work on your songs, we can't really provide you an accurate feedback on your songs without hearing the finished/completed product. I think you should allow yourself to immerse in the song, so you can know where the song is going. And one way of doing that is to complete one song at a time. I think longer intros are not necessary to paint the picture of the song. Why not get into the suspense or mood without an intro, why not start right off the bat with the chorus or verse? But if you want to set in a mood or a suspense by doing it with an intro, here are ways to do it quicker; Include a spoken word part, or reuse one of your main lyrics, or you can reuse a riff or melody in one of your main sections of the song. You can mutate or modified these ideas to your liking for the intro to set up that mood or suspense you wanted. This is also one way to make that intro memorable. Yeah I'm not expecting any groundbreaking stuff from you either but I'm trying to help you by giving you ideas to improve your songwriting. And of course it's your very own decision to use them or not, but I think I should at least suggest them to you than to be quiet about it! lol I'm not sure if your goal is to write groundbreaking songs, but if it is, then my tips should be very helpful to that particual goal. However if it isn't, still give my tips a try to see if it works for you.


[quote="Dewith"]
I actually love the Beatles; my favorite album is Rubber Soul. I'll have to give that Matt Blinks podcast a go for sure, thank you. [/quote]

Well let me share you the main website to you then: [url]http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.com/[/url]
The main purpose of this website of course is to give the songwriter refreshing ideas to write songs by sharing techniques that The Beatles used for writing their songs. Matt Blick writes on how to apply them to your songwriting, but it has other interesting tidbits that's sort of unrelated like the type of thinking the applied to The Beatles work, "Be-atletudes", and information on artists who were influenced by The Beatles, "Under The Influence" tag.

If you have listened to the podcast, give me feedback please, but don't only provide feedback to me but also to Matt Blick himself on his [url=http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.com/]BSA[/url] website.

[quote="Dewith"]

I made a little demo EP about a month ago that i put on my page. I feel as though I did the same thing and sort of rushed a couple songs. I believe that the more I record and re-listen, the better I will become at song writing and improving in general. I'm currently working on an album that I am taking much more time recording, editing, etc. My problem is that I like to rush a lot of my work and not reconsider editing on "finished" songs. [/quote]

You don't have to re-work on your "finished" songs if you don't feel like it. The Beatles had a similar mind to yous, if they had a mistake or the "finished" song didn't came out that well. They would rather write a new song than to rework on an older "finished" song. Now I can help you a bit on writing songs quicker, so you don't have to rush the process that much.

1. Write shorter songs: you don't have to necessarily write 3 minute songs. You can go as short as 1 minute and 30 seconds but probably no shorter than that! lol
2. Set Limitations/Deadlines: This is my favorite approach to writing songs! It doesn't exhaust you so much and you never lose sight of the song since you're trying to finish it under a deadline!! Try this: Time yourself with a stopwatch and see how long it takes you to write a song. Then when you write a new song, try to finish it an hour early than your previous time! For deadlines, it if it usually takes you a week to finish a song, on your next song try to finish in a matter of days!!
3. "Put your song on a diet" - Matt Blick: Ask yourself if a repeat/section/part is really necessary to the song.
4. Collaborate with a songwriter: Why not just do the easy parts of the songwriting process and have your songwriting buddy to do the rest for you?

Since I gave you feedback to your album, can you please give me feedback to any of my songs [url=https://hearthis.at/curtis-pea-aq/]here[/url]? Thanks
Also I recommend not just Dewith but all IMmers to participate on this songwriting competition website [url=http://fawm.org]February Album Writing Month[/url]. It's a songwriting competition site in February where you have 28 days to write 14 songs. And if you fail, you still win! Because the main focus of this site is to get you to write songs, period, under a deadline! And it's free but it's strikingly encouraged to give in any amount in donations as these staff work very hard to maintaining the site. Anyways this competition will contain weekly songwriting challenges. You can also participate in sub-challenges made by users on the forums, and you collaborate with other songwriters as well!
Sorry for the advertisement but I figured that this website would help out IMmers who struggled to write songs!

So the best way to get good at writing songs is definitely to write a lot of songs, but I think that if you're doing it for your own/art's sake, formulaic writing is only going to be good for helping you learn the tropes of styles and ultimately is the box you want to not sit in if you want to write anything "groundbreaking."

[quote="CARNVAL372"]
Well let me share you the main website to you then: [url]http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.com/[/url]
The main purpose of this website of course is to give the songwriter refreshing ideas to write songs by sharing techniques that The Beatles used for writing their songs. Matt Blick writes on how to apply them to your songwriting, but it has other interesting tidbits that's sort of unrelated like the type of thinking the applied to The Beatles work, "Be-atletudes", and information on artists who were influenced by The Beatles, "Under The Influence" tag.

If you have listened to the podcast, give me feedback please, but don't only provide feedback to me but also to Matt Blick himself on his [url=http://beatlessongwriting.blogspot.com/]BSA[/url] website.

[/quote]

I'm having trouble finding his actual podcast; actually have a difficult time navigating the site in general to find what you're talking about. Do you have a direct link? I tried looking for his podcast and had no luck.

I think when i mean to say demo or unfinished, i mean to say a rough draft. They are complete songs, meaning they have the majority content already in it. I do still believe I benefit from hearing everyone's opinion on my work, regardless if they are demos or not.

I listened to a descent amount of your songs. I feel as though you don't often veer away from your strumming style, which can make the listener wonder when a song differs from the other. I do, however, really enjoy the background humming/singing you put in a few songs; it brings the songs to life a little. There is nothing wrong with a minimalist song, but I feel as though a lot of your songs could use more background noise (maybe louder background humming/singing? different instruments?). I'm not sure what kind of recording equipment you're working with, but i'm sure you could add more. Maybe switch up the strumming to where it isn't the same down stroke pattern throughout majority of the song. On another note, I felt as though you put a little more passion in the singing in some songs than others; I could tell when you were into the song and when you were "just" singing, if that makes sense.

(I didn't want to quote everything by the way)

I do appreciate your feedback and advice; I would MUCH rather have you say something as opposed to being quiet.

[quote="Dewith"]

I'm having trouble finding his actual podcast; actually have a difficult time navigating the site in general to find what you're talking about. Do you have a direct link? I tried looking for his podcast and had no luck. [/quote]

Sorry about that, here's the [url=http://mattblick.com/podcast]link[/url]. Just follow the instructions to sign up and should be able to receive the episode (and maybe along with previous episodes) in your inbox.

[quote="Dewith"]

I think when i mean to say demo or unfinished, i mean to say a rough draft. They are complete songs, meaning they have the majority content already in it. I do still believe I benefit from hearing everyone's opinion on my work, regardless if they are demos or not. [/quote]

I'm sorry about that then.

[quote="Dewith"]
I listened to a descent amount of your songs. I feel as though you don't often veer away from your strumming style, which can make the listener wonder when a song differs from the other. I do, however, really enjoy the background humming/singing you put in a few songs; it brings the songs to life a little. There is nothing wrong with a minimalist song, but I feel as though a lot of your songs could use more background noise (maybe louder background humming/singing? different instruments?). I'm not sure what kind of recording equipment you're working with, but i'm sure you could add more. Maybe switch up the strumming to where it isn't the same down stroke pattern throughout majority of the song. On another note, I felt as though you put a little more passion in the singing in some songs than others; I could tell when you were into the song and when you were "just" singing, if that makes sense. [/quote]

Thank you for your feedback on my songs! I see you have actually listened to more than a "decent" amount of my songs which is even better for me! The strumming patterns in my early songs didn't have much variations on them. i wanted them to have a rock'n'roll feel to them but eventually I wanted to see if I was strumming the acoustic guitar correctly. And so I learned the proper way to strum on my recent songs, but I was still experimenting with picks to use that would sit well with my new strumming pattern, and while I found the right pick to use, I still struggle with the strumming pattern because I'm not use to this proper way of handling the pick.

I don't recall any hums in my song but yeah the background singing that you hear some of my songs is because I find vocal harmonies and contrary motion singing (I Can See Wagon Wheel - bridge) interesting and I wanted to add that technique to my songs. In my early songs, I set limitations for myself to not spend so much time on recording. And I still do but I've been loosing the limitations a bit since recently so i can add backing vocals to them and more takes to choose on.

I have another acoustic guitar but I always forget to use it. I can also make the background vocals louder but I don't want them to cover up the main vocals, so I can probably pan them and see if that works. Right now I lack the funds on acquiring other musical instruments. I have only a USB mic to work with as my recording equipment though looking forward for an upgrade to a better suited recording equipment soon. Yeah I'm still working on choosing different strumming patterns but it's hard because some of them don't fit with the tempo of the song but I see what you mean.

Yeah due to my limitations I don't do too many takes on my vocals. I've been trying to loosen up the limitations to allow more takes to choose from. As long as I'm able to sing it well, I think I did pretty well. While I do care if there is passion in my singing, I try not to spend too much time with it. If it's a good take, it's good enough for me.

[quote="Dewith"]
(I didn't want to quote everything by the way)

I do appreciate your feedback and advice; I would MUCH rather have you say something as opposed to being quiet. [/quote]

Thank you! It's okay, you don't have to quote everything from me.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]

I don't recall any hums in my song but yeah the background singing that you hear some of my songs is because I find vocal harmonies and contrary motion singing (I Can See Wagon Wheel - bridge) interesting and I wanted to add that technique to my songs. In my early songs, I set limitations for myself to not spend so much time on recording. And I still do but I've been loosing the limitations a bit since recently so i can add backing vocals to them and more takes to choose on.

I have another acoustic guitar but I always forget to use it. I can also make the background vocals louder but I don't want them to cover up the main vocals, so I can probably pan them and see if that works. Right now I lack the funds on acquiring other musical instruments. I have only a USB mic to work with as my recording equipment though looking forward for an upgrade to a better suited recording equipment soon. Yeah I'm still working on choosing different strumming patterns but it's hard because some of them don't fit with the tempo of the song but I see what you mean.

Yeah due to my limitations I don't do too many takes on my vocals. I've been trying to loosen up the limitations to allow more takes to choose from. As long as I'm able to sing it well, I think I did pretty well. While I do care if there is passion in my singing, I try not to spend too much time with it. If it's a good take, it's good enough for me.

[/quote]

Thanks for the proper link!

I didn't know those were your earlier songs; wish i listened to the recent to give you better feedback. as for the hums, I guess i meant background vocals in general. I know what you mean about being careful not to cover up the main vocal, but i do think the background vocals could go up just a pinch.

When I started recording, I used the built in mic on my computer to record my Gloom album. it was a pain in the ass, but I recorded it just as you did! Equipment can be a pretty penny, so i don't blame you for the lack of instruments/equipment. I do believe you could add more licks. I believe i hear one or two songs that had a couple lead guitar notes throughout it. What do you record with? when I started, I used Audacity.

Have you tried finger picking? it's always a nice way to play something different, especially the slower tune for some of your songs!

[quote="Dewith"]

When I started recording, I used the built in mic on my computer to record my Gloom album. it was a pain in the ass, but I recorded it just as you did! Equipment can be a pretty penny, so i don't blame you for the lack of instruments/equipment. I do believe you could add more licks. I believe i hear one or two songs that had a couple lead guitar notes throughout it. What do you record with? when I started, I used Audacity. [/quote]

Guitar licks are fine and all but I generally prefer chord progressions over hooks. Whenever I do a hook, I spend too much time on it, but once in a blue moon I would give it a shot. But right now backing vocals is more important to me. Yeah provided licks on "I Feel The Skies", "Man", and "Store". Those were shorter songs so had a bit of lee-way on them, but it was more of an experiment on hooks i came up with. For my early songs, I used Audacity, but for my recent songs, (Travel-on) I've been using Reaper.

[quote="Dewith"]
Have you tried finger picking? it's always a nice way to play something different, especially the slower tune for some of your songs![/quote]

I'm more of pick user but I will give it a shot on my recent song that I'm going to record tomorrow.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]

Guitar licks are fine and all but I generally prefer chord progressions over hooks. Whenever I do a hook, I spend too much time on it, but once in a blue moon I would give it a shot. But right now backing vocals is more important to me. Yeah provided licks on "I Feel The Skies", "Man", and "Store". Those were shorter songs so had a bit of lee-way on them, but it was more of an experiment on hooks i came up with. For my early songs, I used Audacity, but for my recent songs, (Travel-on) I've been using Reaper.


I'm more of pick user but I will give it a shot on my recent song that I'm going to record tomorrow.[/quote]

I listened to those three. Wish you added more of the second guitar lick through "man;" even though it was rather short, it was rather catchy (the lick, that is).

Yes! Give finger picking the ol college try! good luck on your recording.

[quote="Dewith"]I listened to those three. Wish you added more of the second guitar lick through "man;" even though it was rather short, it was rather catchy (the lick, that is).

Yes! Give finger picking the ol college try! good luck on your recording.[/quote]

I really felt that the rest of the parts of the song didn't need another lick though. i could be wrong though, but usually the licks appear in my head, and that's where usually I would get my hooks from (aside from starting the song from the verse or chorus).

I tried the finger picking and it turned out to be that the song was a done a lot faster than I thought, so it didn't work.

On my new [url=https://hearthis.at/curtis-pea-aq/flying-above-me/]song[/url] I applied the finger picking method. I also used it on a different acoustic guitar to let it stand out more.

[quote="CARNVAL372"]On my new [url=https://hearthis.at/curtis-pea-aq/flying-above-me/]song[/url] I applied the finger picking method. I also used it on a different acoustic guitar to let it stand out more.[/quote]

Nice. Changes the song up a little, which is great!

I'm likin how this thread's going. CARNVAL, thanks for the great songwriting tips and general encouragement. FAWM seems like a great idea (holy shit 14 songs is ambitious), but I might give it a shot. In all the years I've been playing around with music, I haven't done a lot of "songwriting" in the traditional sense...so this will be a great opportunity to really kickstart it.

Can I offer some constructive crit on what you posted? Thanks! I like your approach to lyrics - sort of opaque little puzzles for the listener to figure out, or interpret in various ways. I think it's much better to make an attempt at something weird and difficult than safe and cliche (although, sometimes safe and easy are just what a pop tune needs).
I did find myself having some trouble with the singing though - I'm often not really sure which notes you're trying to hit at various points, which makes it difficult for my mind to wrap around the melody you're creating. Difficult to say if it's an execution thing (just being flat or sharp), or if it's also sort of a...vagenuess-of-melody thing. Which I imagine would happen if you've got a general idea of *how* you want your melody to sound, but haven't totally nailed down exactly which tones you need to hit. But I'm presuming a lot.

Anyway, keep it up, gang. Maybe I'll share something sometime if all goes well:)

Edit: "obtuse" to "opaque. Used the wrong word

As a pro-tip, cupping a hand behind your ear will make your voice sound louder to yourself, which can be helpful in finding the right pitch when you're still working on your singing and get a little unsure sometimes. Vocal lessons are actually immensely helpful regardless of natural talent, but many people have successfully taught themselves to sing quite well just by listening careful to try and match pitch with a piano. Vocal practice feels pretty weird, but there are some techniques you can use to help make the sounds easier (I have a PDF of a somewhat oldish but quite useful book that some friends have found useful that I can send people if anyone's interested in the more technical approach to how you should use the throat and tongue to shape the sounds).

Also, I just wrote a new song this evening: https://soundcloud.com/midnight-down/mariana

Edit: Also, would love to hear what music you've been making these days, GR. :O

[quote="GoldenRhino"]
I did find myself having some trouble with the singing though - I'm often not really sure which notes you're trying to hit at various points, which makes it difficult for my mind to wrap around the melody you're creating. Difficult to say if it's an execution thing (just being flat or sharp), or if it's also sort of a...vagenuess-of-melody thing

Anyway, keep it up, gang. Maybe I'll share something sometime if all goes well:)[/quote]

Agreed. I like your general sound your going for, despite it not being my taste in music. I will say that in some songs I have noticed a vocal pitch you can work on. Like GR said, it's hard with the melody you've created.

On another note, I think i mentioned something about the strumming before. I know you enjoy the strumming you do because it fits with what your going for, but I do believe it would make your songs a little "fuller," so to say, if you added some fillers when you pause strumming. It's not that one song you do this, but for most there is a lot of pausing; personally, I tend to know what to expect when you add a new song, strumming that is. Keep on recording. I really look forward to hearing some other stuff you produce!

[quote="Marekenshin"]As a pro-tip, cupping a hand behind your ear will make your voice sound louder to yourself, which can be helpful in finding the right pitch when you're still working on your singing and get a little unsure sometimes. Vocal lessons are actually immensely helpful regardless of natural talent, but many people have successfully taught themselves to sing quite well just by listening careful to try and match pitch with a piano. Vocal practice feels pretty weird, but there are some techniques you can use to help make the sounds easier (I have a PDF of a somewhat oldish but quite useful book that some friends have found useful that I can send people if anyone's interested in the more technical approach to how you should use the throat and tongue to shape the sounds).

Also, I just wrote a new song this evening: https://soundcloud.com/midnight-down/mariana

Edit: Also, would love to hear what music you've been making these days, GR. :O [/quote]

Neat tip! I had no idea about that one. Also, I would be interested in this so called PDF. I like to sing in different voices, but have a pretty set style of singing. That being said, I'd be interested to take some notes on this so called throat and tongue sound technique

I listened to your new song, along with the last one you posted. I dig the chord progression, again, and like the passion in the lyrics.

In general, to everyone, I enjoy hearing all the different styles everyone has to share. It's neat to see how everyone on this form has their own little style and is pretty easy about sharing as well as giving advice. I never wanted to share my songs, but I am glad I have done that here. Again, thanks everyone for the sharing and feedback.

I'll send you the book via pm. It's a tad old but describes "proper" singing technique, which requires you to relax the throat and give the sound strength via the diaphragm and shape via the tongue/mouth to make vowels more clear. You'd end up singing like an opera/choir type if you followed it perfectly, but it can really help with figuring out how to control your tone better in general.

Thanks for the kind words. I also really love seeing people share their art, at any level of experience. I spent quite a while being an elitist dick and trash-talking things to try and make myself feel more secure about my own skill but have realized there's something far more interesting and worthwhile to art beyond just the subjective impact and the level of polish. In some ways, I get more excited by people's early tracks where a style begins to clearly emerge than I am by most professional releases. There's magic in the earlier stages of development!