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The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
https://forum.pirouzu.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8187		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Spike [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:39 am ]
Post subject:  The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
Something that's been criticized almost universally on this forum is the production, mastering, and use of autotune/pitch correction on some of The Pillows' more recent material, but after watching clips from The 2nd Movement DVD again where they played many of their older songs, it got me thinking. Is the production a conscious choice? To me, it's not even a question that it's a negative. Everything sounds too processed, from the vocals to the guitars, but maybe that's how they [i]want[/i] to sound.

Listen to them play Razorlike Blue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdrlMNIUKHg

Live, this sounds fantastic. Sawao is [i]fucking on point[/i] and Manabe's guitar sounds great (listen to him rip that solo at 1:30) which really got me thinking, why are their new albums not "working" when this sounds so good? Is it just me/us? Is it bias?

Bokura no Hare Suisei, from the same set. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCgMhbp7DUM Why do they sound so much better live, playing these old songs?
Author:  dimsim3478 [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
A little bit off-topic but do you think there's autotune in those 1st Movement recordings? Seems like--during the chorus of "Bokura no Hare Suisei", for example--Sawao's voice sounds a little bit electronic, or he's got a real build-up of phlegm. Similar thing happens during the [i]ROAR! FLASH! AND MEMORIES![/i] DVD but not so much in other Pillows live footage.
Author:  sl4 [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="dimsim3478"]A little bit off-topic but do you think there's autotune in those 1st Movement recordings? Seems like--during the chorus of "Bokura no Hare Suisei", for example--Sawao's voice sounds a little bit electronic, or he's got a real build-up of phlegm. Similar thing happens during the [i]ROAR! FLASH! AND MEMORIES![/i] DVD but not so much in other Pillows live footage.[/quote]
There's some pitch correction used for sure, though it might just be selectively applied to certain parts.
Author:  chgu [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="Spike"]
Listen to them play Razorlike Blue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdrlMNIUKHg

[/quote]
I would happily take a new recording of Razorlike Blue if it sounded like the 1st movement live show. The only recording I could find sounds pretty awful by comparison.
Author:  dimsim3478 [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
i adore the [i]pantomine[/i] version but its true that it sounds subpar in comparison to the 1st movement version. its mostly just that the band has gotten better as players and sawao has really come into his own as a vocalist, although he did make a marked improvement by the time of [i]white incarnation[/i]. same goes for "boku wa kakera" imo.
Author:  Marekenshin [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
Yeah, I think that the autotune used on their live DVDs seems pretty light/selective. Sawao has put a lot of serious work into singing well, and he was still getting better and better each time I saw them in the past. It shouldn't be a surprise to hear improvement in the live playing and singing after so many years of constant touring. :groovin:
Author:  Spike [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="Marekenshin"]Yeah, I think that the autotune used on their live DVDs seems pretty light/selective. Sawao has put a lot of serious work into singing well, and he was still getting better and better each time I saw them in the past. It shouldn't be a surprise to hear improvement in the live playing and singing after so many years of constant touring. :groovin:[/quote]

Yeah but the question is why do they sound worse in the studio than they do live, and why is the songwriting so pedestrian when they can still play like this.
Author:  MyFoot [ Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
This has crossed my mind before. They clearly still HAVE the chops (the Do You Remember shows were amazing), but it's not showing, to me at least, in their more modern material, which is disappointing for sure.
Author:  sl4 [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="Spike"][quote="Marekenshin"]Yeah, I think that the autotune used on their live DVDs seems pretty light/selective. Sawao has put a lot of serious work into singing well, and he was still getting better and better each time I saw them in the past. It shouldn't be a surprise to hear improvement in the live playing and singing after so many years of constant touring. :groovin:[/quote]

Yeah but the question is why do they sound worse in the studio than they do live, and why is the songwriting so pedestrian when they can still play like this.[/quote]
[quote="GoldenRhino"]"...don't give a fuck."
- Sawao Yamanaka, 2010.[/quote]
Author:  GoldenRhino [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="MyFoot"]This has crossed my mind before. They clearly still HAVE the chops (the Do You Remember shows were amazing), but it's not showing, to me at least, in their more modern material, which is disappointing for sure.[/quote]

What makes me sad isn't even the fact that the pillows make music I don't want to listen to, it's that they make music that has me worry that Manabe and Shin are hella *bored*. That's not to say that music has to be technically advanced to be interesting or worth listening to...but when you see that these band members are capable of playing music that is genuinely *fun* and "rippin" in their past (and rarely, present) careers, it makes you wonder. Do they feel that gulf?

Another way of putting it, is that I don't know who their music is for anymore. That is not to disregard the existence of real people who like their new material (yes, I see you). I'm listening to Tokai no Alice in the bus right now, and I'm imagining a music publication review this track, trying to fit into categories of...pop rock...blues rock...I don't know to make sense of what the pillows have been trying to do for the last several years.

Is Tokai no Alice supposed to be a heavy bluesy grinder with a sassy/swaggery chorus? Is About a Rock n Roll Band supposed to be hard driving pop punk anthem? Is Happy Birthday supposed to be some kind of poppy 90s alt rock hybrid? The pillows often *reference*/pastiche(?) particular rock sounds without seeming to add their own original value. Nowadays, their trademark seems to be cheapening particular sounds, rather than building on their own strengths. Anyone else feel similar?
Author:  Jomei [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
Seems to me they found a comfortable, easy, successful niche and settled into mediocrity. I don't see them aspiring for much more than "catchy up-beat tune #235" and "rock ballad turn back redux the 90s" anymore. And even those efforts feel sort of phoned in production-wise.

It's just a job for them now IMO. Clock in, record One Flew Under the Cuckoo's Nest, Clock Out, OH REAH.
Author:  rockman240 [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
You can see in many live recordings that Sawao is really hung up. He obviously wants to be awesome and do really well, but he seems stuck, unwilling to be open to certain aspects of music or life. I think he's so invested in the idea of doing well that he can't skillfully/artfully/beautifully deal with the reality that's in front of him (e.g. making a really nice vocal performance). Good songwriting, and art in general, has a certain openness as a prerequisite, a certain "humility" not to reject oneself, one's own true judgement, or one's situation, for the sake of an "outside" judgement. Art can't be forced.

In spite of this whole situation, I still believe in Sawao and the pillows so fully because of what they've done. In my mind he's already gone farther than perhaps any other singer/songwriter alive today. And he obviously still cares a lot.

And as Marekenshin said, he has improved in many ways lately. I remember him really stepping up his live game back when Horn Again came out, and it's still improving. Did you guys see this awesome recent performance of Toy Doll? He's expanding his comfort zone as a performer.

http://youtu.be/FqLJAyYiKhg

He doesn't have that total abandon you would demand for a rock star to be your favorite, but it's still great to see.
Author:  Spike [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 10:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="rockman240"]And as Marekenshin said, he has improved in many ways lately. I remember him really stepping up his live game back when Horn Again came out, and it's still improving. Did you guys see this awesome recent performance of Toy Doll? He's expanding his comfort zone as a performer.[/quote]

I agree, but that's kind of my point. These live performances are very enjoyable and it's just not translating to their studio work at all.

GR brought up something interesting about how they've been floating between genres lately. I wonder, are they trying too hard to be different? Not different from the mainstream, but different from themselves. Maybe they feel like being a straight up alt-rock/j-rock band again would be a step backwards, even though that's when they released their best material.
Author:  rockman240 [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
[quote="Spike"]I agree, but that's kind of my point. These live performances are very enjoyable and it's just not translating to their studio work at all. [/quote]
The point I want to make is that I believe it's because Sawao is hung up, and not that he doesn't care anymore. edit: well not so much production, but other aspects.

I agree, and there's no reason their records shouldn't sound as good as their recent live DVDs. Record the records live, if nothing else.
Author:  Marekenshin [ Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The 1st (2nd) Movement, Autotune, & Other Thoughts
I feel like the most obvious and easiest explanation that they're just kind of doing their thing and, Sawao being a bit of a weird, that has them moving off into a direction that some people aren't going to continue to enjoy over time.

I mean, think back to songs like 21 Fingers, or Skim Heaven. The complaints leveled against modern tracks (in terms of not being sure what they're "trying" to be and such) could just as easily be directed at any of those - or many other "quirky" - classic pillows tracks. Their stylistic progression in terms of songwriting and whatnot has, overall, been mostly consistent, with a few occasional jumps in style caused by changes in approach of various sorts catalyzing things. I don't see what's surprising or unusual here, really.
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