[quote="sheerheartattack"][quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="sheerheartattack"]I will bet good money that no one who has mentioned moshing really knows what that is.[/quote]

There's a difference between severe, violent slamming and shoving and "regular" slamming and shoving. The more tame version was at this pillows show, but it was moshing all the same, if we're working from Wikipedia's definition which says "Moshing is a dance in which participants push and/or slam into each other." There was a defined oval near the front in which people ran around, shoved, slammed, hurtled, and pushed aggressively.

Sorry if it seems like we're stealing your precious "REAL moshing is only for REAL hardcore punx like me who aim to break noses" baby. I'm not gonna get all uppity if people call Nickelback and the pillows both "rock music," despite their clear differences.[/quote]

If there existed a defined circle for the purpose of pushing or slamming, fine. But more often than not, there are people who will complain about simple physics. The FOS area is not for women or children (or what have you) - unless they don't mind being pushed around. This will happen, and it is the natural result of placing [i]x[/i] people in [i]y[/i] square feet of area at a rock concert. And the nearer one is to the stage, the greater the pressure from behind, obviously - just as water pressure is greater the deeper one dives. Elbows - well, that just happens, and is the natural result of different people of different heights, who want to raise their hands or what have you. So you may get pushed and compressed, especially at the front of the stage - you may even get lifted off your feet; you may get struck, inadvertently; you may get groped. If you don't like that, don't go to concerts.

But as reluctant as I am to believe that there were open spaces in the crowd at a pillows concert for people to mosh, if you said they were there, then we can assume they were there. I have been to several pillows shows, and never have I seen even one instance of moshing. However, my doubt was well-founded. Too often people will for whatever reason think, "Well, I waited five hours for a decent spot at the front of the stage - so everyone else should have just backed off! If you wanted a spot up front, you should have waited like I did!" However, words cannot express how ludicrous this attitude is. That is not how SRO venues work. If you want to enjoy the show unmolested, stay in the back. Get a table, or a seat, if they are available.[/quote]
I haven't been to [i]that[/i] many shows in my day, but I've been to enough to know that there are people who usually attempt to mosh at pretty much any kind of music, even if it's not really appropriate. I've been to Sparta, Recover, Tilly and the Wall, Head Automatica, Mindless Self Indulgence (which I reluctantly went to but ended up enjoying because they're entertaining as hell live), the pillows, Streetlight Manifesto and Reel Big Fish, the Aquabats, and a couple of others. Every show I went to save for the Aquabats had people trying to mosh.

Only the Aquabats show and the show with Streetlight and RBF had moshing that was a real circle pit with people who were respectful to those outside of the pit and weren't just straight up throwing elbows and knees at people. The MSI pit was AWFUL and people were basically trying to punch and elbow people inside and outside of the pit as much as possible. When I went to the pillows, there were people attempting to mosh, too, and they were basically just making it extremely distracting when trying to enjoy the music.

There's moshing at ska shows which is more or less people getting into circle pits and skanking and pushing each other a bit, then there's the punk kind of moshing, then there's the kinds at metal shows, then there's the shit that got popularized when hardcore bands got big and it involves people taking their shitty hardcore dancing moves and actually hitting people with it. It's NOT people just trying to get to the front and pushing. There are people actually elbowing in an attempt to be HxCORE and moshing, even if it's a failed attempt at it.

[quote="h2orowe"]
I haven't been to [i]that[/i] many shows in my day, but I've been to enough to know that there are people who usually attempt to mosh at pretty much any kind of music, even if it's not really appropriate. I've been to Sparta, Recover, Tilly and the Wall, Head Automatica, Mindless Self Indulgence (which I reluctantly went to but ended up enjoying because they're entertaining as hell live), the pillows, Streetlight Manifesto and Reel Big Fish, the Aquabats, and a couple of others. Every show I went to save for the Aquabats had people trying to mosh.

Only the Aquabats show and the show with Streetlight and RBF had moshing that was a real circle pit with people who were respectful to those outside of the pit and weren't just straight up throwing elbows and knees at people. The MSI pit was AWFUL and people were basically trying to punch and elbow people inside and outside of the pit as much as possible. When I went to the pillows, there were people attempting to mosh, too, and they were basically just making it extremely distracting when trying to enjoy the music.

There's moshing at ska shows which is more or less people getting into circle pits and skanking and pushing each other a bit, then there's the punk kind of moshing, then there's the kinds at metal shows, then there's the shit that got popularized when hardcore bands got big and it involves people taking their shitty hardcore dancing moves and actually hitting people with it. It's NOT people just trying to get to the front and pushing. There are people actually elbowing in an attempt to be HxCORE and moshing, even if it's a failed attempt at it.[/quote]

Moshing/slamdancing/thrashing is not related necessarily to the music so much as it is related to crowd that is drawn. People who like punk are accustomed to slamdancing, metalheads are accustomed to thrashing, etc. With the fans comes different styles of dancing, the pillows apparently draw many people who also like punk on some level. I know I like punk, I like slam dancing, I also like the pillows. When I pumped up at a show, I want to slam dance, it's simple, as long as there are multiple people who enjoy slam dancing, it WILL happen.

To say you cant slam dance at a pillows show is stupid, slam dancing can be done to any music that gets you pumped up. And the pillows definitely have songs that have that effect on many people. ROSS, Last Dinosaur, Blues Drive Monster, Advice. If you have never been pumped up by a pillows song, you probably don't have a soul.

It's a general rule at a rock show in america, the floor is for the people pining to touch the band at the front, and behind them, are the slam dancers. If you want so bad to touch the band, you're gonna have to deal with the slam dancers behind you, SORRY LOL.

We're all here to enjoy ourselves, if slam dancers bother you more than not being close to the band, get off the floor. Seriously, just because your a driveling fanboy grasping for manabe's pick doesn't make your enjoyment more important than mine.

Ok, now I definitely regret using the term "moshing."

[quote="Camio"]Seriously, just because your a driveling fanboy grasping for manabe's pick doesn't make your enjoyment more important than mine.[/quote]

A good chunk of the people slamming against us at the show were also trying to get up to the front for this exact reason. I got several elbows in the face from people who more or less appeared to be slam dancing but were actually just trying to get closer to the front of the stage. Sorry for complaining about getting physically attacked for my spot by people who arrived mid-show.

also
[color=#80FF40]>your[/color]

[quote="Camio"]
It's a general rule at a rock show in america, the floor is for the people pining to touch the band at the front, and behind them, are the slam dancers. If you want so bad to touch the band, you're gonna have to deal with the slam dancers behind you, SORRY LOL.
[/quote]

Wow, that's a great way to generalize "rock show", and you're obviously wrong. I've gone to several "rock shows" which featured no kind of moshing whatsoever. Dinosaur Jr., The Breeders, Asobi Seksu, Hum, Kaiser Chiefs, even Weezer shows. I don't know maybe they're not "HARDCORE" enough, but they're still rocking, still get myself and the crowd pumped, and no one's in immediate danger of getting knocked to the floor or a blow to the head, save the occasional crowd surfer.

The one thing you're right on, is that it can be related to the type of audience drawn. The pillows obviously draw lots of different people. So all these slam dancers need to respect other people's spaces (as limited as that may be) and realize not everyone wants to tolerate their bullshit. Go do that crap at your metal shows, or your punk shows, or your hardcore shows, where most of the crowd is willing to go along with it. At the three the pillows shows I've gone to, it's always been a small minority of assholes that start ramming into people, not the majority of the crowd. We're all here to enjoy ourselves. Don't infringe on somebody else's right to have a good time. Just because your some dude who wants to ram into others because you're pumped, doesn't make your enjoyment more important than mine.

[quote="Camio"]
Moshing/slamdancing/thrashing is not related necessarily to the music so much as it is related to crowd that is drawn. People who like punk are accustomed to slamdancing, metalheads are accustomed to thrashing, etc. With the fans comes different styles of dancing, the pillows apparently draw many people who also like punk on some level. [/quote]

This, only the problem is these people don't go out, they're weeaboos for the most part (Especially the ones that were "moshing," you could see them giggling amongst theirselves at how funny they thought it was), and never go out to concerts, and their idea of moshing is what they see in the YouTube videos. So they're doing it wrong.

At least for the LA show, there was no people who were into punk. There was only this guy
http://www.facebook.com/kyle.posada?ref=ts
And 100 clones of him. Not punk.

[quote="Camio"]
Moshing/slamdancing/thrashing is not related necessarily to the music so much as it is related to crowd that is drawn. People who like punk are accustomed to slamdancing, metalheads are accustomed to thrashing, etc. With the fans comes different styles of dancing, the pillows apparently draw many people who also like punk on some level. I know I like punk, I like slam dancing, I also like the pillows. When I pumped up at a show, I want to slam dance, it's simple, as long as there are multiple people who enjoy slam dancing, it WILL happen.

To say you cant slam dance at a pillows show is stupid, slam dancing can be done to any music that gets you pumped up. And the pillows definitely have songs that have that effect on many people. ROSS, Last Dinosaur, Blues Drive Monster, Advice. If you have never been pumped up by a pillows song, you probably don't have a soul.

It's a general rule at a rock show in america, the floor is for the people pining to touch the band at the front, and behind them, are the slam dancers. If you want so bad to touch the band, you're gonna have to deal with the slam dancers behind you, SORRY LOL.

We're all here to enjoy ourselves, if slam dancers bother you more than not being close to the band, get off the floor. Seriously, just because your a driveling fanboy grasping for manabe's pick doesn't make your enjoyment more important than mine.[/quote]
Nope.

I laugh at the fact that you call me a driveling fanboy when I've not listened to any of the pillows new stuff, save for the music videos, since My Foot. the pillows are one of my all time favorite bands, don't get me wrong, but I'm not going to be a snob about it. Hell, I'm usually not even the kind of person to go to the front of a crowd at a show, save for the one Aquabats concert I went to, but the moshing there was friendly as fuck, and people would help others up, grab glasses, extra shirts/merch, etc. that fell and return it to their owners. Last year when I saw the pillows in April or whatever month it was, people were moshing to songs that were appropriate to mosh to, but they were also moshing to softer songs. These are the kind of people who mosh no matter what kind of music it is because they just like to knock into people and throw limbs wildly. Except for when you're in the back of the crowd and you can't see shit, there's going to be some sort of interaction with you and the mosh pit even if it's a small one, because people are acting like idiots and pushing those that aren't even in the pit.

Maybe you're having a hard time grasping this, but when people are throwing elbows and knees at other people in the pit and it's starting to hit the people outside of the pit, maybe you should learn to mosh properly before getting back into the pit. Raiden nailed it on the head. Most of these people don't actually know what moshing is.

I don't have a problem with moshing to harder/faster songs because that's the kind of music that's appropriate to mosh to, but when you have people doing it to every song just for the sake of GETTING INTO THE MUSIC, then you're just being a dick and ruining other people's enjoyment. ESPECIALLY WHEN PEOPLE THROW ELBOWS I CANNOT EMPHASIZE THAT ENOUGH.

In short, Camio: calm the hell down and stop throwing elbows. If I catch you throwing them elbows the next time I'm at a pillows show, I'm going to buy you a chair and find a corner so you can have some time out.

sorry if I offended you specifically because I used your quote, the drivelling fan boys are whoever is at front and feels entitled to their position because they got there early, and feels being up close is important for no reason I can think of other than to be as close to the pillows as possible. If this is you, then yes I'm talking to you, if it's not then never you mind your dainty head.

You can still enjoy the music just as much from the back, only reason to be up there is to be closer, and if that's sooooo important, you should be ready to deal with rough housing. If there's a free-for-all floor, arriving early entitles you to NOTHING, the point of arriving early is to hang out with fans and maybe get the chance of running into the band, and getting up front where you will get smashed against the stage. There are many shows where there wont be so much mayhem up close, obviously the pillows is not one of them.

it's possible that some people were charging forward during certain songs, and yeah that sucks but ohwell. Some people believe coming out of a show sweaty, hurting, and drained is the sign of a good show. And if we're not alone in our erratic wild dancing, we probably wont stop. Sorry if we don't get along.

Let me clarify something WE aren't telling you how to enjoy yourselves, if you don't want to slam/mosh/whatever you want to call it. Stand your ground and don't let us push you around or move away from the pit. We don't care, we have our friends at our side, we're having a good time. If you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen, survival of the fittest, etc. We're not bad people, most people slamming don't actually aim to involve people that don't want to but shit happens.

Me personally if I don't feel like bouncing off people during a show, I find a spot that I can sit, grab a beer and watch the band play. I'm enjoying the show, I can probably see better, get to enjoy a beer, maybe yell some conversation with whoever I'm with.

If you want to enjoy a show a certain way, you're going to have to compromise and find the best way to do it. Live shows are the real world with people that are probably not like you at them kids. If you go around getting all butthurt when someone does something you don't like, you wont be able to enjoy yourself. Even if you can straighten out one, you'd have to straighten out all of them.

loosen your panties, for a minute, either stand your ground or move farther away, simple. Sorry to be the stubborn tough guy, but i like to go to shows and enjoy them how I like, not be told how I'm supposed to enjoy them.

p.s. lol you get irritated at people bouncing off each other at the pillows concert and you want to tell me you're going to discipline me? Honestly, grow a pair, stop being so sensitive. If you cant come up with a better way than trying to sit me in a corner... then honestly, you're all talk.

[quote="h2orowe"]
In short, Camio: calm the hell down and stop throwing elbows. If I catch you throwing them elbows the next time I'm at a pillows show, I'm going to buy you a chair and find a corner so you can have some time out so you can think of how much of a jackass you are.[/quote]

<----- my face when Camio sticks h20 with a switchblade at a pillows concert for trying to discipline him.

Oh, [i]bother[/i].

IM: [i]Rock Concert Etiquette 101[/i].

I thought it was pretty obvious I was joking when I said I'd put you in a time out. I felt like my post sounded naggy enough as it is and I wanted to make fun of that. My beef isn't so much with people who mosh as it is with people who mosh to songs that aren't really mosh appropriate and even more so with people who don't know how to mosh and just go around throwing elbows at people.

And Lesser_Hamster, if Camio came at me with a switchblade for telling him I'd put him in time out, I think that'd just make the whole moshing crowd look even more try hard tough guy. He might get his Gameboy Pocket privileges taken away for a week or two.

Dude, you forgot. [i]Lesser_Hamster is hardcore[/i]. He and Camio are of the same ilk. Don't fuck with them. Unless you wanna die. [i]Painfully[/i].







Also, I u pirrows.

It's cool, I've been training for this moment all my life. I think I've built up enough fat to have my organs be impenetrable. Your blades will just sink into my blubber and I will laugh heartily.

On topic, though, I'm stoked to hear about the NY show. I'm hoping they play some of their older songs.

[quote="Camio"]You can still enjoy the music just as much from the back, only reason to be up there is to be closer, and if that's sooooo important, you should be ready to deal with rough housing.

Let me clarify something WE aren't telling you how to enjoy yourselves, if you don't want to slam/mosh/whatever you want to call it. Stand your ground and don't let us push you around or move away from the pit. [/quote]

First we need to make a distinction between what may be expected at a Slayer show, and what may be expected at a pillows show. They're different, I would expect more rough dancing at a Slayer show. the pillows play pop rock, so, not as much.

What I'm really not digging about your comment, Camio, is that it assumes that all of the people who don't want to dance like you and all of the people who are at the show all have the same basic physical characteristics and capabilities. Because you are a tough guy (and I don't mean the term lightly, you're probably a healthy, energetic young man who is fairly strong) you are suddenly [i]entitled[/i] to enjoy the show in whatever manner you want. In actuality, the consequence is that concert-goers who do NOT have your body type (women who aren't particularly tough, guys like me who are shrimpy) are suddenly relegated to second-class status. Sure, you were just having a good time, but you also caused a small group of young Asian women who got there long before you to be crushed pretty painfully against the stage. And you tell them to get out of the kitchen if they can't stand the heat? Since when did you have primary entitlement to the kitchen?

Again, I want to emphasize the fact that this is context specific - the pillows' show being the important context.

My problem is that in your ideal world, people physically weaker and those not as physically energetic [b]simply have no place enjoying the show from the front.[/b] I'm willing to accept the practical notion that Slayer and whatever else are going to be a tough guys club, and that's pretty unreasonable to stop traditionally hardcore moshing crowds from moshing so hard. But the pillows crowd has a pretty diverse range of body types. I just ask that people like you respect that and consider the enjoyment of your fellow fan.

Could we agree that we would rather be at a show where 100% of people were enjoying it 9/10 instead of a show where 40% of people were enjoying it 10/10 and 60% of people were enjoying it 7/10?

Basically...just be aware of what kind of crowd you're in, and check your privilege. Sorry for being repetitive, but not everyone is equipped to deal with moshing (or "slam dancing") like you and your peers. You don't have more of a "right" to enjoy the show because you are a strong and highly energetic guy.

GR makes a great point.
It's shit like that that makes going to shows a little less enjoyable.

Camio, if we ever eat together, remind me to defecate in your food; it's the only way I'll be able to enjoy our meal.

edit: also +1 to everything Grey said