[quote="Marekenshin"]One, only one Nine Miles cover.

Two, getting a real orchestra is rather expensive, and probably a choice determined by the record label as opposed to the band.[/quote]

Only one? Heart is There and The Third Eye, man. Both sucked.

Yes it is expensive. Many bands settle for just a smaller chamber orchestra or even just the string sections (cello and violin specifically) which are the least invasive and IMHO, most tasteful part of any size orchestra. Also yes, in cases where money is involved it always a decision of the record label. However, studio engineers know people, producers know people, and after 15+ years of active playing The Pillows should know people. Many musicians will freely lend their services to an album just to get their name in the liner notes which gets their name "out there" and may secure them another recording session that pays. The fact I trashed it a post earlier aside, with today's recording technology you can take a single violinist and make him/her sound like four or five. You can even have the violinist play the same piece twice, multiply the first by three and then mix in the second one with the fudged note that people will remember. IMHO MIDI samples just scream lazy.

[quote="Utuseru"]sawao's voice cracks in Ice Pick[/quote]i think he means the acoustic version

[quote="sheerheartattack"]
I generally agree to what you're saying, except not in such absolute terms. For instance, music isn't necessarily supposed to be dirty sounding. I'd wager some of the best orchestras can kick a synth's ass any day of the week.[/quote]

When you've got 40+ people all trying to play the same piece, there's larger room for error than one person fumbling around on a MIDI keyboard. Sure it's their job to be professionals as they're representing the entire orchestra and practice constantly to avoid messing up, but there's still the possibility of recording devices failing or other accidents happening that make a song unforgettable not only for what was done right, but what was done wrong.

Music certainly can be perfect but in a genre like rock, a little grit goes a long way

[quote="sheerheartattack"]However, if you're some quasi-popular rock band from Japan, a synth might be your only option.[/quote]

Look above for that one. Trust me, if Japan is anything like California, there's just tons upon tons of people that would go without pay to just get their name out there on an album. Especially if they have singles that get pushed through mainstream media.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]A lot of people might disagree, but I believe that you can maintain the artistic quality of music while using a synth. Most music in the 80's was built around the synth, and there was certainly no lack of talent, musicianship, or artistic merit. Will I respect a band who can sound great without a synth more? Yes, but that doesn't mean that using a synth will in turn be losing my respect. Far from it.[/quote]

Yeah there was certainly talent abound in bands from the 80's. Enough for one hit single, anyway. The use of synths in the 80's were more of a musical trend and modern touch than anything. So were pastel shirts and white suits or Jackson guitars. IMHO, Synth should've stayed in the 80's because actual pianos and organs are better sounding.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]Remember, a synth still has to be [i]played[/i], and it does require talent.[/quote]

Yeah but a real violin can be an antique made out of 300 year old wood and have a distinctly different tone from one digitized, compressed, and sampled on a MIDI keyboard. I'm not even going to start on the bow itself, which can be worth a few thousand dollars. Then there's the violinist him/herself, who may have distinctive vibrato or phrasing. I don't think MIDI keyboards have samples of a violin playing sub-harmonic notes either. I just read about that shit last night. Truly amazing stuff. MIDI samples just can't compare to the human element. Technology will never replace humans.

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"][quote="Marekenshin"]One, only one Nine Miles cover.

Two, getting a real orchestra is rather expensive, and probably a choice determined by the record label as opposed to the band.[/quote]

Only one? Heart is There and The Third Eye, man. Both sucked. [/quote]

Your ignorance of the things you're talking about is showing. The Third Eye was NOT a Nine Miles cover.

[quote="Marekenshin"]Your ignorance of the things you're talking about is showing. The Third Eye was NOT a Nine Miles cover.[/quote]

Oh so Sawao is running out of song titles and needs to take them from Manabe's solo efforts now?

Man and here I thought it was just a bad cover. I guess The Pillows decline is worse than I thought.

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"][quote="sheerheartattack"]
I generally agree to what you're saying, except not in such absolute terms. For instance, music isn't necessarily supposed to be dirty sounding. I'd wager some of the best orchestras can kick a synth's ass any day of the week.[/quote]

When you've got 40+ people all trying to play the same piece, there's larger room for error than one person fumbling around on a MIDI keyboard. Sure it's their job to be professionals as they're representing the entire orchestra and practice constantly to avoid messing up, but there's still the possibility of recording devices failing or other accidents happening that make a song unforgettable not only for what was done right, but what was done wrong.

Music certainly can be perfect but in a genre like rock, a little grit goes a long way [/quote]

Actually, I think there would be less room for error (in a good orchestra). In a well-established orchestra, you have a large group of people as technically proficient as Paul Gilbert and Yngwie Malmsteen combined, playing music that isn't necessarily a shred-fest. So in most performances, there will be no errors. In any studio recorded performance, at least, there will be none. When synths are used as auxiliary instruments by bands like the pillows, they are generally not played by professional keyboardists. I'd wager you'd get a whole lot more error out of them than you'd ever get from, say, the BSO. Now, I'm not trying to argue your point that bands should enlist actual musicians with actual instruments, but I am disagreeing with the room-for-error argument.

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"]
[quote="sheerheartattack"]However, if you're some quasi-popular rock band from Japan, a synth might be your only option.[/quote]

Look above for that one. Trust me, if Japan is anything like California, there's just tons upon tons of people that would go without pay to just get their name out there on an album. Especially if they have singles that get pushed through mainstream media. [/quote]

You not only need an orchestra, you need a way to pick the orchestra, a way to compensate them, a way to record them, etc. Sometimes a keyboard is a lot less troublesome than all that networking and personal matters, and a lot of times it can sound a whole lot better, too. You also have much more creative control, as the composer, because you (as Sawao) understand a keyboard a hell of a lot more than you do an orchestra, now, don't you?

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"]
[quote="sheerheartattack"]A lot of people might disagree, but I believe that you can maintain the artistic quality of music while using a synth. Most music in the 80's was built around the synth, and there was certainly no lack of talent, musicianship, or artistic merit. Will I respect a band who can sound great without a synth more? Yes, but that doesn't mean that using a synth will in turn be losing my respect. Far from it.[/quote]

Yeah there was certainly talent abound in bands from the 80's. Enough for one hit single, anyway. The use of synths in the 80's were more of a musical trend and modern touch than anything. So were pastel shirts and white suits or Jackson guitars. IMHO, Synth should've stayed in the 80's because actual pianos and organs are better sounding.[/quote]

They are different sounding. Same with electric pianos. Same with a FZ-3 Fuzz pedal played through a Jackson, vs. when played through a Les Paul. Some people don't think of the actual sound that an instrument makes, but rather just focus on the notes. But I personally believe it's just as important, and I like to think of a keyboard as a way to expand the variety of sounds available to a particular band. You could tour around with a piano, an organ, and a brass section - or you could get a keyboardist.

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"]
[quote="sheerheartattack"]Remember, a synth still has to be [i]played[/i], and it does require talent.[/quote]

Yeah but a real violin can be an antique made out of 300 year old wood and have a distinctly different tone from one digitized, compressed, and sampled on a MIDI keyboard. I'm not even going to start on the bow itself, which can be worth a few thousand dollars. Then there's the violinist him/herself, who may have distinctive vibrato or phrasing. I don't think MIDI keyboards have samples of a violin playing sub-harmonic notes either. I just read about that shit last night. Truly amazing stuff. MIDI samples just can't compare to the human element. Technology will never replace humans.[/quote]

MIDI won't ever replace the human element in performance, but in convenience, you can't even begin to compare the two. In sound, however, technology makes them more and more comparable.

One violinist in total can [i]supposedly[/i] play subharmonic notes. I suppose, in theory, you could pay a lot of money to get said guitarist to perform on your album. You can't seriously blame a band like the pillows (or any band, for that matter) for not doing that, though.

No one blamed John Paul Jones for playing the keyboards - no one should blame Sawao either.

the new album needs
1) less pop, WAY LESS.
2) better drums.
3) softer vocals that could pull the high notes real well like the old days, cus, damn it, I know sawao can still do it, he just pulls the damn "Oh, I'm a different person now" crap. I know he wants it to be fun music but he just needs to define his voice.
4) Less repetitive guitar lines because we all love it when manabe does something new and elaborate (Happy Slave, Naked Suffle)
5) the duel guitar idea was cool, I wanna see what more they could do with that.
6)And, I agree, another reggae song or a jazz song because I've never heard a jazz or reggae song of theirs I didn't like.

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"][quote="Marekenshin"]Your ignorance of the things you're talking about is showing. The Third Eye was NOT a Nine Miles cover.[/quote]

Oh so Sawao is running out of song titles and needs to take them from Manabe's solo efforts now?

Man and here I thought it was just a bad cover. I guess The Pillows decline is worse than I thought. [/quote]

Culen, I know you're just trying to get my goat here, but that's fucking retarded. So does that mean that any time two artists have similar titles, they "stole" it due to "running out of ideas"? Shut up. Stop being such an idiot and look at the fucking lyrics of the song. Seriously. This is the stuff that makes your presence here pointless. The discussion you're carrying with sheerheartattack is interesting. This pointless pillows-bashing is just fucking retarded.

[quote="Marekenshin"]defending sawao, nm rofl[/quote]

Hey did you hear about that new Paul McCartney album coming out? Here's the tracklist!

1. Imagine
2. Crippled Inside
3. Jealous Guy
4. It's So Hard
5. I Don't Want to Be a Soldier Mama, I Don't Want to Die
6. Give Me Some Truth
7. Oh My Love
8. How Do You Sleep?
9. How?
10. Oh Yoko!

Man it sounds [i]great[/i]. How does he do it?

[quote="sheerheartattack"]
You not only need an orchestra, you need a way to pick the orchestra, a way to compensate them, a way to record them, etc. Sometimes a keyboard is a lot less troublesome than all that networking and personal matters, and a lot of times it can sound a whole lot better, too. You also have much more creative control, as the composer, because you (as Sawao) understand a keyboard a hell of a lot more than you do an orchestra, now, don't you?[/quote]

I don't know, maybe I just prefer meeting folks and networking. I'm not talking about an orchestra of any kind any longer as it's not likely you're going to find somebody who knows one who will board a bus and play for free, unless maybe you were someone who's a household name and musical icon. If you're hiring an even halfway competent violinist or musician proficient in a classical instrument that demands a good ear, they'll be able to transpose notes to their instrument very quickly. Knowing the key helps too. As for compensation; for most of the folks I've talked to, just the promise of their work being credited with their name in the accompanying booklet is enough. That's all the free advertisement that a musician looking to score a big, well paying gig in the future will ever need.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]You could tour around with a piano, an organ, and a brass section - or you could get a keyboardist.[/quote]

A keyboardist doubling as auxiliary instruments just screams hokey to me. Always has. Maybe I'm old fashioned and would rather see a couple of folks with violins and cellos backing a standard four piece or a full brass ensemble off to the side than seeing a single keyboardist looking out of place. Or worse, having the entire piece just omitted completley.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]No one blamed John Paul Jones for playing the keyboards - no one should blame Sawao either.[/quote]

To be fair, nobody will be namedropping Sawao or The Pillows 30 years from now. The music world was simpler back then. We also didn't have the means to contact people as easily or network between fellow musicians as we do now. The point I'm trying to make is it's really not that hard to ask around, get some names and make some calls. I guess if you were really in a rush, MIDI is alot more convenient than relying on other musicians to jump on a Subway or into a car and travel into a studio to lay down a track. But using MIDI makes it feel like The Pillows' albums are all made in a rush.

They weren't, right? I mean, all of The Pillows albums are well thought out masterpieces, right?

[quote="FZ-3 Fuzz"][quote="Marekenshin"]logic[/quote]

Hey did you hear about that new Paul McCartney album coming out? Here's the tracklist!

1. Imagine
2. Crippled Inside
3. Jealous Guy
4. It's So Hard
5. I Don't Want to Be a Soldier Mama, I Don't Want to Die
6. Give Me Some Truth
7. Oh My Love
8. How Do You Sleep?
9. How?
10. Oh Yoko!

Man it sounds [i]great[/i]. How does he do it?
[/quote]

Wow, I love how whenever you're beaten on a point, you try to just go "lol whatever you're wrong" and then move on and not bring it up again. Same thing with the guitar stuff in that other thread. Stop being an idiot Culen, and don't argue a point you can't logically defend.

[quote="Marekenshin"]
Manabe writes song called The Third Eye
Solomonic Polar Bear Doesn't Sell Well
Years Pass
Solomonic Polar Bear Returns Doesn't Sell Well
The Pillows butcher Nine Miles song to drum up support for Nine Miles; make it a b-side
Sawao writes single called The Third Eye
Mare denies any connection between the two songs named the exact same thing made by two members in the same band
Nerd Rage[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

How about doing the mature thing and backing down? The two songs are totally unrelated, sound different, and have different themes/lyrics. Grow up, Culen.

NERD RAGE RAGHHHHH

-edit-

They're related by title.

That and they both suck. But mostly the former.

I may just be bullshitting here, but since Japanese culture and Japanese people are very different from what we are used to, I'm not entirely sure how comfortable a musician would feel networking and directing others in such a manner (although Sawao does seem to have no problem with making Manabe and Shin his bitches). Anyway, I think that essentially we agree on all points except this one: we both think that what you described is the best possible situation. However, I believe that a synth is a very worthy and convenient alternative, whereas you think it degrades the quality of the work.

I also don't think most bands have the management to tour or even organize bands of more than even four people. You surely must have been in a band or two, so you'd know that it's hard enough to even get that many people to cooperate.

And as for the last point, I don't think that the pillows make songs in a rush, but it seems to me that the community (if you can call the "four" of them that) mindset is a whole lot different. It's just one guy writing songs, and really showing them to only three people, who will all collaborate until they have a finished product. It would probably be very difficult or awkward to throw other artists and musicians into that culture.

I know, personally, that when I'm in a band, I consider loyalty, dedication, and kinship far above technique or skills. A band is a close unit, and if you're a writer, you need someone you'd feel comfortable exposing yourself to in order to get your unadulterated ideas out in the open and make a final product.

Of course, some people are completely different, but I'm just offering a reasonable point of view.

Culen's got a valid point - it's not just a case of two bands happening to have a song that's named the same thing. Manabe and Sawao are in the same band. And the title isn't something you would normally think of to be duplicated accidentally.

Both of you chill out and stop being douches.