Complexity and nuance have gone down the drain to levels I can no longer appreciate. End of story.

Greyson, no point trying to remove a theoretical "bias" you think everyone might have around here, when there's no way to prove it either way.

[quote="Tidusauron12"]Complexity and nuance have gone down the drain to levels I can no longer appreciate. End of story.
Greyson, no point trying to remove a theoretical "bias" you think everyone might have around here, when there's no way to prove it either way.[/quote]

I'm just narrating my subjective response to this album, and my experience being a "pillows fan" - a title I have a special relationship to. When people have a strongly or ~strangely~ different relationship to something that I care deeply about, I'm really interested.

I'm interested especially because I know the musical tastes of people who consistently have positive things to say about new pillows releases. It's like, I *know* your musical palette is much broader, much more interesting, hell, much more demanding. So from my perspective, it looks like the pillows exist in this "context-free" bubble, where the expectations you would hold for other artists do not apply. I mean, I get it - that's what being a diehard fan is partly about. I'm not absolving myself from that.

"It's not *that* bad" is not a reason to listen to something. Neither is "It's unfair and useless to compare it to their previous work." Is it hitting the spot? It is making you happy? Artists are currently making me leagues happier than Moondust/HORN AGAIN/OOPARTS/TRIAL:

Drake, Nicki Minaj, Aphex Twin, Belle & Sebastian, Dave Brubeck, Sonic Youth, Taylor Swift, Kishi Bashi, Lorde, Stevie Wonder, Tegan & Sara...

THERE IS SO MUCH MUSIC OUT THERE. And I know you guys have your own eclectic mix of beloved artists who are honing a craft, trying new things, expanding their sounds...so I'm wondering why we're spending any breath discussing the newest batch of distorted powerchord mush and Sawao's strained, derpy doo-woppy melodies.

The people who enjoy the album have given their reasoning many times over in this thread. What more could you want? Once that point has been reached, you're simply wasting your time trying to take it any further. The music one consumes is based on so many factors that you will never fully understand why people enjoy something you don't, even when it comes to this band that we're all fans of.

People enjoy things. I have no idea how you can enjoy half the stuff you listed even semi-regularly, but I do not feel any need to poke at it repeatedly. I understand the music from a theoretical perspective and the importance of subjective tastes as well... you can objectively analyze things all you want, but the subjective qualifier for "good" is going to fall out of the objective sphere at some point. For each person, this mixture of objective and subjective conditions and how they relate with "pleasure" when it comes to consuming music is in every case simply different. What people look for, need, and interpret from what they hear and how they respond to these sounds is a very complex thing.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]how far the pillows have fallen, when you need [b]high-end headphones[/b] or a stereo system[/quote]

Nah, I just said "headphones or a good stereo system," because shitty laptop speakers and cheap CD players have awful speakers that don't project the music well, whereas anything but complete bottom-end dollar store headphones (by and large) will sound decently enough that you can appreciate nuances that will get lost to the room and buried under background noises on crap-tier speakers.

I'm glad to see you continue to impose your assumptions about how everyone who likes the pillows's recent stuff must just be trying really hard to justify their music rather than just take words at face value. It's one thing to ask people why they like it, it's another entirely to type paragraph after paragraph about how much you can't understand it. Eventually, it just looks like you're arguing at people to hold themselves to YOUR tastes (or "standards," as you want to call them).

Edit: I mean, seriously, people aren't saying "it's not that bad," they're saying "I DO like this." If you're going to hop on a pseudo-intellectual high horse, have some consistency, at the least. The only "it's not THAT bad" is going on in response to people who continue to throw hyperbolic criticism about albums because they can't understand how other people can like something they don't.

Edit edit: Also, have you considered that it's not about people saying "it's not fair to compare an album to another album" (you can't even fucking have a favorite album without doing that, duh durrr), but rather it's "these are two separate things that do different things for me, and it's not right to say that because Moondust isn't good in the same way as Lostman it must not be good at all"? Because that's the gist I hear when people pull that one out, so like Tidus has said, what more do you want? It always comes off as feeling more like fishing for an argument and trying to tell people that their taste is bad rather than going for true, honest discussion, because whenever people tell you they like something you don't, you claim they're probably "just giving the pillows a pass" rather than believing that their taste is different than yours. That's fucked, yo.

[quote="Tidusauron12"]What people look for, need, and interpret from what they hear and how they respond to these sounds is a very complex thing. For each person, this mixture of objective and subjective conditions and how they relate with "pleasure" when it comes to consuming music is in every case simply different.[/quote]
This right here, the answer is literally this simple.

[quote]I'm interested especially because I know the musical tastes of people who consistently have positive things to say about new pillows releases. [/quote]
I have positive [i]things to say[/i] but Moondust is one of their weakest albums IMO (the other weakest being OOPARTS). I don't think anyone would disagree with that point.

I think it's what you said, that you're expecting another PML each go-around. Maybe you're holding the pillows to a higher standard than other artists. That's what it seems like to me.

You gotta give it up. Let go of expectations. Then if the extremely unlikely happens and they come out with an epic album you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[quote="rockman240"]I think it's what you said, that you're expecting another PML each go-around. Maybe you're holding the pillows to a higher standard than other artists.[/quote]

I'm not expecting another PML each go-around, I don't think anyone is at this point. The only standard I hold the pillows to is that I want their music to be as worthy of listening to than any of the other music I listen to, whether it's mainstream pop, jazz, or even some anime soundtrack. It's about opportunity cost, I guess.

[quote="Mare"]you claim they're probably "just giving the pillows a pass" rather than believing that their taste is different than yours.[/quote]

I'm suspicious and concerned because I know the musical taste/standards of the people who *do* appreciate new pillows tunes to, generally be at a level that would exclude albums like Moondust, had it gone under the name of another band hypothetically.

Just out of curiosity, how often does Moondust (and/or OOPARTS, TRIAL, etc) make it into your playlists/daily rotation? How often will you listen to the album, or several tracks from the album in a given month? I'm not trying to say "GOTCHA BITCH" if you say "0", I'd just like to know.

And just to clarify, the reason it seems like I'm belaboring the (really not that complex) point of "I think Moondust sucks" is because, well, we're already done with the track reviews. Consensus: Clean Slate Revolution is alright, a handful of tracks are actively bad. Cool, whatever. If you like music I don't like, sure, whatever - I know a number of you dislike some of the music I like. I'm more interested in the meta-conversation about the pillows here - what the fuck is going on with this band? What is going on with the popularity of this band, in Japan and overseas? Is this band still evolving at *all*, or are they just barely iterating on their established dinky tropes while cashing the fuck in on tour DVDs and anniversary shenanigans? People who dislike Saturday Night Live, who think it fell off years ago and is now garbage...they don't just "not care for SNL" - there's an active disgust and resentment there (even if slight). It's because of the "How far we have fallen" factor. It's about being sort of shocked at its lack of quality, rather than just being indifferent.

So that's why I'm making a big deal about this, it's partly because this is really the only interesting pillows conversation I feel like having (unless some of you dudes wanna circlejerk about everything up to and including Good Dreams). Why have so many English-speaking fans fallen off, while some of you guys still see significant value in what is currently being produced? And actually Mare, I wonder if you'd have some insight to that. Do you know what's going on with Japanese unofficial fansites? Have they followed a similar trajectory to IM? It's pretty quiet around here these days. And I don't think it's really...on-the-mark, to say that traffic here is lower, because users' taste in music has changed. It's because the product has changed. I'm trying to have that conversation.

I don't really know how to get itunes to show lifetime plays of everything but I do have Moondust in a playlist, and it says I've listened to Happy Birthday 33 times, Clean Slate Revolution 20 times, and pretty much the rest of the album about 15 or so. I don't really know if that helps or not. Not that it means much compared to the majority of the albums, we've all listened a bajillion times.

I don't know what more can be said... of the avex albums I have a fondness for Wake Up, lukewarm to cold on Pied Piper, mostly confused by Ooparts, indifferent to disappointed for Horn Again, hot and cold for Trial, and I decently enjoy most of Moondust, I suppose similarly to Wake Up. No, it's not a particularly impressive string of albums. It is a considerably weaker string of albums, and I don't think anyone would contest that. But apparently they are [i]different enough[/i] albums, because everybody has their own ordering of the previously listed feelings.

I don't think anyone is denying a decline or a lower tier, but at the same time, I don't think anyone needs to be, uh, [i]rescued[/i] from listening to avex pillows. When/if the pillows release some next level shit, we're going to know. It would be a fairly quick consensus. "This is different!" IM would exclaim. We would still have thoughts up and down on what is good on the album, but "This is different!" would be a welcome, overdue development at this point.

No, currently the pillows are not particularly noteworthy from a critical perspective. Perhaps if we could secure direct communication with them, some way to say "We greatly appreciate you but we've been relatively disappointed with your work in recent years, with the utmost respect we would like to challenge you to innovate", would that be a road worth pursuing for you if it were at all possible? Maybe the next time they come, someone could find a way to convey such a message. I too would like to know what the demographics are outside IM. So in a sense, I'm one foot in with the way you are feeling and what you want to talk about.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]I want their music to be as [b]worthy of listening to[/b]
I'm [b]suspicious[/b] and concerned
I'm belaboring the [b](really not that complex) point[/b] of "I think Moondust sucks"
are they just barely iterating on their established dinky tropes while cashing the fuck in on tour DVDs and anniversary shenanigans?
"How far we have fallen"
shocked at its lack of quality
this is really the only interesting pillows conversation I feel like having
[b]I'm trying to have that conversation[/b][/quote]
Have you tried reading your own words before or after you post them? You continue to show to us via insinuation ("I'm suspicious") as well as leading questions ("are they barely...?") and overemphasized personal opinions stated as fact ("really not that complex a point") that for some weird reason, just because YOU don't like the new pillows music much at all, and you weirdly believe your personal taste to be an objective, universal indicator of what is "worthy of listening to" (or just as stupidly; perhaps you think that "consensus" gets to objectively determine it?), so you constantly beat your points to death by fucking going inquisitor mode on anybody who enjoys things. Moving the goalposts constantly, until you finally revert back to "nah man no way you actually like this, I can't believe that."

Maybe you just shouldn't have that conversation, because you're not really trying to learn anything. People have explained their opinions, as well as their qualms, about this album up and down, but you simply refuse to accept those reasons and keep demanding more. Do you really not see how insanely childish and stupid that is?

[quote]Just out of curiosity, how often does Moondust (and/or OOPARTS, TRIAL, etc) make it into your playlists/daily rotation?[/quote]
I have a playlist on my phone with the most recent three releases, I listen to it a few times a month still.

Personally, I've stated multiple times that despite the poor production, I really enjoy Sawao's lyrics and melodies, Manabe's leads and they way they weave into Sawao's melodies, the general emotion and songwriting of the tracks, etc.

It's kind of hilarious, because Sawao once said that because a lot of people are stupid, you have to record music how they expect it or they won't be able to tell when something is a good song. The recent pillows albums have all been commercially successful in Japan, following the general production trends. The music has continued to be good in and of itself, and their live performances phenomenal, but some people can't look past a wrapping that they don't like the color of for whatever reasons, call it "standards" or just taste as it should be known.

[quote="Marekenshin"]It's kind of hilarious, because Sawao once said that because a lot of people are stupid, you have to record music how they expect it or they won't be able to tell when something is a good song. The recent pillows albums have all been commercially successful in Japan, following the general production trends. The music has continued to be good in and of itself, and their live performances phenomenal, but some people can't look past a wrapping that they don't like the color of for whatever reasons, call it "standards" or just taste as it should be known.[/quote]

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. On one hand, we've all sort of agreed that the production is garbage and mushy on this album. So you're saying that despite its garbageness, it's indicative of what is expected and popular in Japan. I don't really know where that leads us, because [i]argumentum ad MTV [/i]doesn't really jive with me. To me, it's not an indicator of whether a certain band is *better off*, artistically, doing such a thing.

And to clarify, (not to tell you that your opinion is wrong), what I'm perceiving on IM is that most people [b]are[/b] disappointed with the new songwriting. The recent production style is just another layer on top of that, but really, not the essential piece. Number Girl has its share of tracks (and live tracks) that are, I'll say, "inaccessibly produced" - but the strength of the musical elements alone carries these recordings through. It's good shit. Again, please don't read this as a prescriptive argument, I'm just saying that I think you're reading the general (and my own) reaction to the new stuff a little incorrectly.

The generally agreed-upon "best" track on here, Clean Slate Revolution, is built like a royalty-free pop punk track...except muddier.

Break a Time Machine: Poor-man's Skinny Blues, which itself is a poor-man's Biscuit Hammer. I think the chorus is actually alright. And the solo actually works and sounds pretty coherent here. I think they could have let this track breathe a little more though. There's just a *lot* of guitar goin on.

Tokai no Alice: Everything about this track is obnoxious. The riff, the pre-chorus, the chorus, what sounds like autotune...actually, the solo kinda kicks ass. I almost want pillows to go whole hog on this stupid smutty swaggery blues shit. Actually no. But props to this stupid solo.

About a Rock 'n' Roll Band: ditto Clean Slate Revolution. Not utter garbage, I would have settled for this being the worst track on like, Wake Up x3 or something.

Prairie Rider: requisite pillows joke track.

Happy Birthday: Manabe's leads just aren't working for me. The feel of the chorus is alright, but man, it's like they're stuck between two sounds. There's so much fuzz here, I want this chorus to hit harder and feel even more gigantic. But the production on Sawao's voice, and his delivery, just don't match it. If the pillows had any daring left in them, they could make this track sound pretty "epic". But nah. Our version of "epic" is a few stabs of MIDI-violin. Thanks. Thanks. The Brian May harmony at 3:12 amused me. The bridge is a fucking trainwreck. It's too bad they botched it, because if they just let it breathe for a second, they could come in hard with the chorus. It's almost feels like the pillows don't realize when they have a good thing going, leaving a lot of missed opportunities on the table.

Anemone: zzzz. Sawao's vocals are also all over the map here.

Song for You: This is likely the worst track the pillows have recorded in English. The are moments were the melody hints at shining. This is one of the tracks that production could have helped the most. It does get points for not having a repetitive, cloying Manabe lead in the left ear.

Message: I'm getting exhausted. The solo has a few moments. On the whole, more of this strained, warbly, doo-woppy kids-blues (do we have a fucking name for this yet!?).

Moodust: The closest this album is gonna get to a quality song. It all works, there's no cheesy bullshit (aside from right after the solo). Sawao tries valiantly to wrest the goodness from this song at the end by "WRAA WRAAing" it with all he's got.

Ideal Affection: A new precedent? TWO joke songs? This song could have almost fit in Penalty Life. I might have been okay with that, because at that point in the pillows lifespan, I would have had more patience.

Anyway, there ya go.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]Prairie Rider: requisite pillows joke track.[/quote]


Requisite GoldenRhino joke post?

That aside, going through a list of every song and saying "I don't like this how could anyone like this" is basically just more of the same...

[quote="sl4"]That aside, going through a list of every song and saying "I don't like this how could anyone like this" is basically just more of the same...[/quote]

That's not being very generous. I supplied more words and actual critique than many of the more positive-leaning track summaries others have provided in this thread. I have no stake in saying "Eh, this didn't do it for me - I think this is bad music." If you giving a track a 7/10 is valid, while me giving it a 4/10 is invalid...why are we even discussing this then?

Also, it's pretty common knowledge that for the last MANY years the pillows have always thrown a sort of "novelty" song at the end. It's hit or miss (usually a miss, but Primer Beat was great).

[quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="sl4"]That aside, going through a list of every song and saying "I don't like this how could anyone like this" is basically just more of the same...[/quote]

That's not being very generous. I supplied more words and actual critique than many of the more positive-leaning track summaries others have provided in this thread. I have no stake in saying "Eh, this didn't do it for me - I think this is bad music." If you giving a track a 7/10 is valid, while me giving it a 4/10 is invalid...why are we even discussing this then? [/quote]
Because you've been bitching about people liking what you don't like and demanding that they justify liking it for roughly four days now? This entire conversation started because you took a Mare quote out of context and reshaped it into something it didn't actually say in order to 'prove' that you're right.

No one is being taken out of context. Mare said something that was perplexing to me. That if you had a high quality sound system, you would better be able to understand how the elements that comprise the song, are better than you previously thought. Despite the production which *does not actually benefit those who have nice audio setups*. If you're listening to compressed mush, why exactly do you need a headphone amplifier or surround sound or whatever? This is not Dark Side of the Moondust.

I mean I see how it wouldn't hurt your experience, but to say that it enhances what these songs actually are... Just sorta .. It's a reach. imho

I ALREADY corrected you on what I said and you're STILL HOLDING ONTO YOUR MISINTERPRETATION OF MY WORDS:

[quote="Marekenshin"][quote="GoldenRhino"]how far the pillows have fallen, when you need [b]high-end headphones[/b] or a stereo system[/quote]

Nah, I just said "headphones or a good stereo system," because shitty laptop speakers and cheap CD players have awful speakers that don't project the music well, whereas anything but complete bottom-end dollar store headphones (by and large) will sound decently enough that you can appreciate nuances that will get lost to the room and buried under background noises on crap-tier speakers.[/quote]

Seriously, what is your problem? You're like this amazing brick wall of narcissistic self-absorption, such that no matter what words anyone else says, you only hear the shit already in your own head from bad reading comprehension and an insane refusal to accept the possibility that others like something you don't. Nobody has to justify their taste to you, and please stop beating the horse to death trying to convince people they shouldn't like something.

If you don't like the pillows anymore and all you're going to do is harass people with this "soft" opinion nazi bullshit wrapped in the guise of "wanting to understand," just leave already. (Edit: or at least stop wasting people's time in these threads and find some chill.)

EDIT: Not to be a huge asshole, but you just aren't absorbing anything that anyone else says here.

Greyson you need to chill dude. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and musical tastes. That does INCLUDE your own but that DOES NOT mean you can criticize another persons musical taste as garbage or full of shit just because it doesn't align with your own personal beliefs. Some people like what they like and no amount of argument can change that. If I like vanilla ice cream, no matter how much you argue that its bad for me and that there are so many other flavors of ice cream (ie. rocky road, chocolate chip cookie dough, mint chocolate chip, strawberry etc..) that are far superior to my bland and boring vanilla it wont change the fact that I LIKE VANILLA ICE CREAM.