man, everybody's opinion is valid if they now what they're talking about. i don't think good dreams sucked, although it's defintiely not their best, i'd probably rate it #8 of my all time fav pillows albums. but keep in mind, good dreams and moon gold sound TOTALLY different. someone on here said a few days ago that the two albums might as well ahd been from different bands, that's how much they vary. it just depends what kind of music your into. me personally, i voted moon gold as my least favorite. granted there's some good songs on there, but their sound was very different before lostman, and i tend to like their post-lostman work much better.

[quote="Alero"][quote="GoldenRhino"][quote="Tatsu-Kun"][quote="GoldenRhino"]. Honestly, would you rather listen to Sono Mirai, Spiral, Good Dreams, Frontiers, and XAVIER for the rest of your life, or Ami ni Utaeba, Dear My First Step, Hello Girl, Sayonara Tansai Wakusei, and I Need Somebody?
[/quote]
Honestly? Moon Gold.[/quote]
Kay! [/quote]
Lo-Fi Boy wins.[/quote]
Lo-Fi Boy is only beat by Bad Dreams in the bad song department.

You can't say that because opinions are null and void.

[quote="Ikareta Baby"]I didn't imply that more "experienced" people can appreciate music on some transcendent level. I said that people who lack a rich musical experience are the people who will be satisfied with good dreams. Hearing a variety and volume of musical styles doesn't make you smarter or better, but it does inform your future listening and it will elevate your standards.

And I hate that “opinions” bullshit. It’s a ridiculously glib and hollow argument. If everyone’s opinion is valid, and music is totally subjective, than I’m going to go record myself pissing in a styrafoam cup and demand it receive the same praise and respect as Bach’s cello suites.
[/quote]
You're taking your statement "Good Dreams is worthless crap" and trying to make it the standard.

Yes, people with a rich musical experience may value skillfully crafted music more, but through my experience, the skill doesn't have much weight in what people choose to actually listen to. It's not extremely rare to find a musically knowledgable person who listens to a bit of screamo (for instance, Locust) Hell, it's their thing - they can listen to what they want without need for a debate.

And if people don't like the sound of your piss, they won't listen to it. It's just that simple.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]And if people don't like the sound of your piss, they won't listen to it. It's just that simple.[/quote]

>:[ yes they will.

It's not about what people listen too. It's about how we demarcate good and bad and compare it too other music.

Edit: And yeah, lo fi boy is pretty shitty.

[quote="Ikareta Baby"][quote="GoldenRhino"]And if people don't like the sound of your piss, they won't listen to it. It's just that simple.[/quote]

yes they will.

It's not about what people listen too. It's about how we demarcate good and bad and compare it too other music.[/quote]
Everyone's a robot.

I like moon gold the best, pre-PML
for the worst I went with Penalty life, I never really liked it, since release. I liked good dreams quite a lot earlier but it kept falling... Last time I heard pantomime I was shocked at how the vocals were horrible and I'm still recovering from it.

certainly opinions aren't interesting unless there's fact and reasoned argument behind them. but at some point it really does boil down to the fact that some people like peas, and some people don't. why? who knows.

[quote="Ikareta Baby"]I didn't imply that more "experienced" people can appreciate music on some transcendent level. I said that people who lack a rich musical experience are the people who will be satisfied with good dreams. Hearing a variety and volume of musical styles doesn't make you smarter or better, but it does inform your future listening and it will elevate your standards. [/quote]

i can somewhat see the point here. i'll admit it- when i was a kid, i listened to a lot of mainstream pop. i've grown up, and listened to more things now, and i see that it's mostly crap- based on criteria including originality, musicianship and expressiveness. if all you want is silly love songs to sing along with... well, i guess it's not too bad then. but i think what made me change my mind wasn't simply listening to more music. it's that as a result, my basis for comparison grew and my criteria for what was good or bad evolved. what i'm going for is that it's only useful to qualify something as 'good' or 'bad' with respect to certain criteria/characteristics. if other people don't value the same criteria, then it's a moot argument.

so, ikareta- what is your criteria for judging that [i]good dreams[/i] is crap? as i understand, you said you find it soulless, that's it's mostly filler, and you don't like sawao's vocals. i can understand the first and the last statements- you didn't find it emotionally satisfying, and sawao's voice just didn't appeal to you. fair enough.

i don't think [i]good dreams[/i] is that great, but i don't think it's total crap either. i find some of its songs either emotionally satisfying or just fun to listen to, and it demonstrates a certain level of talent.

i can agree that there is some merit to their pre-PML work. [i]turn back[/i] showed me that. however, i just don't enjoy listening to any of it. sawao's voice and the poor production are entirely unappealing. and i just don't value musicianship as highly as other people do.

[quote="terra"]certainly opinions aren't interesting unless there's fact and reasoned argument behind them. but at some point it really does boil down to the fact that some people like peas, and some people don't. why? who knows.

i can somewhat see the point here. i'll admit it- when i was a kid, i listened to a lot of mainstream pop. i've grown up, and listened to more things now, and i see that it's mostly crap- based on criteria including originality, musicianship and expressiveness. if all you want is silly love songs to sing along with... well, i guess it's not too bad then. but i think what made me change my mind wasn't simply listening to more music. it's that as a result, my basis for comparison grew and my criteria for what was good or bad evolved. what i'm going for is that it's only useful to qualify something as 'good' or 'bad' with respect to certain criteria/characteristics. if other people don't value the same criteria, then it's a moot argument.[/quote]

That's more or less the point I'm trying to get across. I think my standards have changed in the same way. It's like being a small child and thinking that everything is very large or tall. Yet, when you grow up, your perception of scale changes. It's also just that, once your are aware of great music, you are less likely to tolerate crap.

I agree with you, that the trickiest part of organizing music into "good" and "bad" categories is having a universal criterion for those qualities. But, I think it's possible for most reasonable and informed people to agree upon a relatively objective criterion. Perhaps, it’s possible for those criteria to change depending on the style of music, but I don’t think that it’s as subjective as some people are claiming. Not everyone will value the same thing, but that's why we try to convince people of our opinions and impose our standards onto the rest of the world. It's fundamental to the human condition. I mean, if I told you that it was my opinion that slavery was awesome and should be reinstated, surely you would try to convine me otherwise?

[quote="terra"]so, ikareta- what is your criteria for judging that good dreams is crap? as i understand, you said you find it soulless, that's it's mostly filler, and you don't like sawao's vocals. i can understand the first and the last statements- you didn't find it emotionally satisfying, and sawao's voice just didn't appeal to you. fair enough.

i don't think good dreams is that great, but i don't think it's total crap either. i find some of its songs either emotionally satisfying or just fun to listen to, and it demonstrates a certain level of talent. [/quote]

I think that the quality of sawao's song craft is no longer as dynamic or expressive as it once was. He used to write very solid pop songs that were technically superlative while also possessing immense emotional substance. Recent albums are deficient in this regard. They sound homogenous and are musically tedious. Sawao’s voice also sounds pretty damn bad. When he was very young, it was rough, but it’s buoyant youthfulness was contextually perfect for their style. When he matured it could be both subtle and reserved, or emotional. He used to be able to sound almost like shinji sato when he wanted to. Now he sounds like a yelping dog with throat cancer. His tone is unattractive and distracting. I think he was at his vocal peak around tiny boat.

Thanks for actually addressing my criticisms of good dreams/my foot, rather than just pulling some strawman “opinions” bullshit. >;]

[quote="Ikareta Baby]Now he sounds like a yelping dog with throat cancer. His tone is unattractive and distracting.[/quote]

Sure beats The Potato Chips. >_>

by the way, thanks terra for further elaborating on this topic.

Good Dreams doesn't suck. On my first listen through, I liked every song except for Orange Film Garden, Frontiers, and Rosy Head. That's right, I liked Xavier, You Stood Like an Angel, Lo-fi Boy, New Years Eve, even BAD DREAMS. Now that I've listened to it more, I like Rosy Head and Frontiers, leaving OFG as the only lame duck on the album (and only because of the fugly vocals, I loved the music)

Reasons I like these so called "fillers"

Xavier - Speedy delivery, what Manabe is doing through the verses, ends before getting stale.

You Stood Like an Angel - each line of the chorus, the vocals go up a scale, which I think is insanely creative. It's probably hated for the same reason.

Lo-fi Boy, Fighter Girl - The song is just fun to listen to. The pace is quick, the guitars are memorable, and the ending is excellent. I want the t-shirt.

New Years Eve - Terribly underrated. The whole thing is just beautiful, and the do do doo do doo do do do is just a perfect simple expression of the simple melody. I love the solo too.

BAD DREAMS - The reason it's hated is definately the reason I like it; It sounds like the batman theme X halloween + crazy "scary" noises. I say OH REAH!

Criticisms I have of Good Dreams:

OFG felt like it belonged on the single, not the album. Beehive would have fit much better after You stood like an angel. Also, Heavy Sun belongs on the album, period.

Good Dreams (the song) is excellent to an extent. Again, the vocals are fairly abrupt and slightly grating during the verses. The intro is amazing, the chorus is powerful, the solo is quick and to the point, the ending is perfect. But you can't deny it, Sawao hit a few bum notes on this album. I think the core dislike of Good Dreams (album) is the vocals. It is a very straightfoward rock album, with not much innovation, but it isn't necessarily bland. It is a good album. Not amazing, not shit in a basket.

It WILL NOT get my vote. I haven't made the decision yet, but I'm leaning toward MG or KS.

Words cannot express my love for [i]Kool Spice[/i]. But if you don't like it, oh well.

I agree with you on "New Year's Eve."

[quote="Jomei"]Energy and Razorlike Blue are anything BUT mediocre.[/quote]

The lyrics for razorlike blue are horrible. It should have been an instrumental. Same goes for Energy.

Does anyone else think Sono Wa Ima sounds almost exactly like to Last Dinosaur?

[quote="Nesso"]
Does anyone else think Sono Wa Ima sounds almost exactly like to Last Dinosaur?[/quote]
You don't pay too much attention to old threads do you?

At least we can pull out the Cabernet to HB, LB, and RH being untouched in the poll.