[quote="sys2021"][quote="sheerheartattack"][quote="sys2021"]Er from what I read Goldenrhino presents a more convincing argument...[/quote]

That's obvious. GR represents an opinion that most or all of you share. The belief that "selling out" is bad (or existent), and the belief that the pillows should continue to create music that "you like." I am just trying to explore a different opportunity, from a nonbiased point of view. That of, say, someone who has no musical preferences.

His argument is obviously more appealing, because if the pillows continue to make music that is not directed toward a pop audience, the former pillows audience will enjoy it more. However, by saying it would be wrong to switch to that audience, you are saying that the pop audience's musical tastes are somehow inferior, which is quite elitist.

Your claims that you are fearful that the pillows "want to move in the direction of My Foot." My argument is simple: if the artist wants to do something, he should be able to do it. The only way that is debatable is by saying, "But I don't like the new course they are taking, and since it might lead to increased record sales, we will append the title of 'selling out' to them, and create an argument out of that."[/quote]

Wow, don't drag me into this. You don't want that.
Do you even read your own posts? Goldenrhino's argument is backed by logic, yours is backed by your own as-a-matter-of-fact opinion.

This isn't about selling out or elitism. It's about demanding good music from the pillows. Really good music, which we know they are capable of producing. No one is arguing that My Foot is a bad album. But compare My Foot to some of their better albums... there's a difference. Yeah, I enjoy a few songs off of My Foot, for sure, but they're not at the same level as say, Strange Chameleon, or All the Way to the Edge of this World are to me.[/quote]

There's no such thing as demanding "good" music. There's only demanding music that [i]you[/i] like. This is all about people not understanding that "good music" is 100% subjective. When you compare My Foot to their "better albums" using [i]your[/i] judgment, it is better. But there are no universal objective measures by which you can argue that My Foot is any worse than any other album. You said it all in the last three words of your post.

As far as saying GR's posts are based on logic, and mine are based on opinion clearly proves that A) you yourself did not read my posts, or B) they went entirely over your head.

And seriously, "You don't want that." What?

Get it right, noob. このよのはて間で。

[quote="sheerheartattack"][quote="sys2021"]Er from what I read Goldenrhino presents a more convincing argument...[/quote]

That's obvious. GR represents an opinion that most or all of you share. The belief that "selling out" is bad (or existent), and the belief that the pillows should continue to create music that "you like." I am just trying to explore a different opportunity, from a nonbiased point of view. That of, say, someone who has no musical preferences.

His argument is obviously more appealing, because if the pillows continue to make music that is not directed toward a pop audience, the former pillows audience will enjoy it more. However, by saying it would be wrong to switch to that audience, you are saying that the pop audience's musical tastes are somehow inferior, which is quite elitist.

Your claims that you are fearful that the pillows "want to move in the direction of My Foot." My argument is simple: if the artist wants to do something, he should be able to do it. The only way that is debatable is by saying, "But I don't like the new course they are taking, and since it might lead to increased record sales, we will append the title of 'selling out' to them, and create an argument out of that."[/quote]

proof that you didnt read a single thing GR said.

[i]reading comprehension ppl, come on lol.[/i]

[quote="AWPJudy"][quote="sheerheartattack"][quote="sys2021"]Er from what I read Goldenrhino presents a more convincing argument...[/quote]

That's obvious. GR represents an opinion that most or all of you share. The belief that "selling out" is bad (or existent), and the belief that the pillows should continue to create music that "you like." I am just trying to explore a different opportunity, from a nonbiased point of view. That of, say, someone who has no musical preferences.

His argument is obviously more appealing, because if the pillows continue to make music that is not directed toward a pop audience, the former pillows audience will enjoy it more. However, by saying it would be wrong to switch to that audience, you are saying that the pop audience's musical tastes are somehow inferior, which is quite elitist.

Your claims that you are fearful that the pillows "want to move in the direction of My Foot." My argument is simple: if the artist wants to do something, he should be able to do it. The only way that is debatable is by saying, "But I don't like the new course they are taking, and since it might lead to increased record sales, we will append the title of 'selling out' to them, and create an argument out of that."[/quote]

proof that you didnt read a single thing GR said.

[i]reading comprehension ppl, come on lol.[/i][/quote]

I'd like to be pointed toward any inconsistencies between what I said and what he meant?

Will you all just shutup? It's like a Democrat and Republican going at in here, no one will win. Thanks for fucking up another thread, guys

Seriously sheerheart, you do need to shut up with this, "What defines good?" philosophical bullshit. Even though you say taste is subjective and I'll agree to an extent, I can arguably say that their recent work is not "on par" with some of their previous works. By "on par" I mean that the lyrics as well as the riffs and beats aren't as ..moving or as deep and meaningful as they are in other songs, for lack of a better term.

Does this make their songs bad? No. But it doesn't make the music "more good" by being less moving, despite its appeal to more people. If people like the new sound, that's because that's the kind of music they like to listen to.

By accusing people of not wanting the pillows to be successful doesn't make them elitist bastards. Some people would just prefer that the pillows make really strong, meaningful songs over mainstreamed songs that appeal to the masses and have less meaning. Basically, when it comes down to it, we're arguing spirituality versus material success. And considering that music is the most one of, if not the most enlightening ways for man to express his or her soul... I think spirituality should win over materialism.



You know what, I think I have a better idea. Lock this thread. I think it's fairly obvious no one is going to change their minds here.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]The belief that "selling out" is bad (or existent), and the belief that the pillows should continue to create music that "you like."[/quote]

ugh, this whole 'discussion' is shit-fuck retarded.
to sum everything up for you assholes:

if they went to a larger label because:

- they wanted more artistic freedom -

then everyone wins. thread over.

if they went to a larger label because:

- they wanted more money/bigger sales -

then you get a split. if their artistic vision remains the same, then everyone still wins, thread still over.

but if they change their sound, [i]specifically to gain more money/because of label pressure, and not because it's the music they really want to make, then they're being sellouts.[/i]

so really, this is all [b]total speculation[/b], because the next 30 albums could all sound exactly like 'my foot,' and since we'll never know their [b]motives[/b] (any of you guys good friends with sawao???)


[b][size=150]THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT IS MOOT[/size][/b]

I will agree that the argument is moot, but I will not agree that one side has a point, and the other does not.

[quote="Thinliine"]Get it right, noob. このよのはて間で。[/quote]Sorry for typing the english translation of the song, apparently it didn't meet your expectations . By the way, it's この世の果てまで, if you're going to bitch someone out for something like that, at least look up the correct characters. You're worse than that guy who cursed me out for capitalizing "The Pillows", or typing "Hybrid Rainbow" instead of "HYBRID RAINBOW". Nazis for life.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]*snip*[/quote]On the contrary, I did read through your posts. At this point you're just arguing for argument's sake, trying to pick a fight with everyone. You're entitled to your own opinion, but don't go around trying to argue every fucking point under the sun, just because you can. Your point of what's "good" being subjective makes sense, but when I say "good music" I am not referring to what I alone think is good. The good music I'm talking about does encompass my opinion of what I think is good, but clearly there are certain songs+albums that most people agree are of higher quality than others. If you're going into that argument, it really boils down to individual opinion.

[quote="blank"]Seriously sheerheart, you do need to shut up with this, "What defines good?" philosophical bullshit. Even though you say taste is subjective and I'll agree to an extent, I can arguably say that their recent work is not "on par" with some of their previous works. By "on par" I mean that the lyrics as well as the riffs and beats aren't as ..moving or as deep and meaningful as they are in other songs, for lack of a better term. [/quote] Truth.

Whatever the case may be, I feel that this change to another label will be a turning point in the Book of Buster. It could be good; could be bad. In any case after hearing "PROPOSE" I shan't be worried.

[quote="sys2021"]
[quote="sheerheartattack"]*snip*[/quote]On the contrary, I did read through your posts. At this point you're just arguing for argument's sake, trying to pick a fight with everyone. You're entitled to your own opinion, but don't go around trying to argue every fucking point under the sun, just because you can. Your point of what's "good" being subjective makes sense, but when I say "good music" I am not referring to what I alone think is good. The good music I'm talking about does encompass my opinion of what I think is good, but clearly there are certain songs+albums that most people agree are of higher quality than others. If you're going into that argument, it really boils down to individual opinion.[/quote]

Picking an argument is different from picking a fight. One is espousing a set of logical ideas (not necessarily my own) and promoting them in discussion, whereas a fight would imply a sense of hostility, of which I have none.

On the point of "good music," there are entire armies of people who believe that "Britney Spears" makes "good music." But quantity does not matter - like you said, it's [b]all[/b] about [i]individual opinion[/i].

[quote="blank"]Seriously sheerheart, you do need to shut up with this, "What defines good?" philosophical bullshit. Even though you say taste is subjective and I'll agree to an extent, I can arguably say that their recent work is not "on par" with some of their previous works. By "on par" I mean that the lyrics as well as the riffs and beats aren't as ..moving or as deep and meaningful as they are in other songs, for lack of a better term. [/quote]

First of all, the lyrical content of anything before PML is largely unknown to the pillows' audience, and even if there were translations of all of them, it would still be damn near impossible for an English speaker to valuate their poetic worth. Secondly, aside from many of the songs crafted in English, I don't get how the lyrics are any less moving now than they ever were. That's just me and my opinion, just like you have yours. We can both argue our opinions equally, because they are just that - opinions. You may think they've deteriorated, but I do not. It's all completely subjective. If anything, it's not enough to accuse Sawao of doctoring his music to broaden its appeal.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]There's no such thing as demanding "good" music. There's only demanding music that [i]you[/i] like. This is all about people not understanding that "good music" is 100% subjective. When you compare My Foot to their "better albums" using [i]your[/i] judgment, it is better. But there are no universal objective measures by which you can argue that My Foot is any worse than any other album. You said it all in the last three words of your post.

As far as saying GR's posts are based on logic, and mine are based on opinion clearly proves that A) you yourself did not read my posts, or B) they went entirely over your head.[/quote]

A few things here.
-About my "I don't want them to move in the direction of My Foot" comment, well, that's a personal opinion. It doesn't really have anything to do with this topic. If Sawao truly wants to for his own creative purposes, then he should do it. While I won't necessarily love the results, I would be glad that he's pursuing that he wants. The fact that I prefer Happy Bivouac over Degeneration doesn't really have anything to do with this.

-My posts aren't based on "logic" so much as they're based on supporting artistic integrity. Artistic Integrity. Remaining true to yourself, and the product you're creating.

-sheerheart, while of course I agree that "good" music is subjective...the "All music is the same, anyone should be allowed to make what they want for whatever purposes they want, X album is as good as Y album because quality is subjective, so nothing can every truly be 'lesser' " argument is getting old fast. [b]Let me quote Richard Dawkins: "There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out."[/b]

People totally have the right to say "Oh yeah, My Foot really shows how the pillows' sound has matured so much since the days of PML and Little Busters. It's just so much deeper and complex." But we all know it's total bullshit.

I hope I never learn to type fast so I can continue to avoid participating in "conversations" like these in the future.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]
A few things here.
-About my "I don't want them to move in the direction of My Foot" comment, well, that's a personal opinion. It doesn't really have anything to do with this topic. If Sawao truly wants to for his own creative purposes, then he should do it. While I won't necessarily love the results, I would be glad that he's pursuing that he wants. The fact that I prefer Happy Bivouac over Degeneration doesn't really have anything to do with this.

-My posts aren't based on "logic" so much as they're based on supporting artistic integrity. Artistic Integrity. Remaining true to yourself, and the product you're creating.

[/quote]

Understood. So to clarify things, we both support "being true to oneself." The only difference in opinion is this: You believe that the product one creates (the music) is solely an avatar of this truth, whereas I believe the product one creates is merely a vehicle for whatever higher truth the artist may have - whether it may be expressing oneself or creating fame/wealth or increasing sales of Weetabix. Case closed.

[quote="GoldenRhino"]

-sheerheart, while of course I agree that "good" music is subjective...the "All music is the same, anyone should be allowed to make what they want for whatever purposes they want, X album is as good as Y album because quality is subjective, so nothing can every truly be 'lesser' " argument is getting old fast. [b]Let me quote Richard Dawkins: "There's this thing called being so open-minded your brains drop out."[/b]

[/quote]

Of course the arguments are getting old fast, we've been discussing it for three pages or so. I do not espouse the idea that all music is the same. Of course it is one of the most varied forms of art there are.

That "anyone should be allowed to make what they want for whatever purposes they want" is something I certainly do support, along with the belief that the artist has no obligations to his audience. However, as stated above, you believe that the artist has an obligation to create in accordance with his artistic vision, and I can fully understand that, even without believing in it.

I am not saying that album X is as good as album Y; I am saying that it is futile to compare them in terms of how "good" they are.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]If anything, it's not enough to accuse Sawao of doctoring his music to broaden its appeal.[/quote]

We're not accusing him of anything, merely expressing fears that he may end up moving in that direction.

[quote="thinline"]このよのはて間で[/quote]
lol