[quote="Utsuseru"]The people who try to apply logic to everything they see are those that often end up saying to themselves "Why did I waste all this time thinking about logical results, when I could have enjoyed my life, where is the logic in my actions?"

Who cares if all we feel is caused by chemicals? We still feel.[/quote]


The last line of your post is the only good one. The first paragraph is a terrible misconception about people who tend to think logically. How the hell would you know what people "end up saying to themselves?"

[quote="Jomei"][quote="Utsuseru"]The people who try to apply logic to everything they see are those that often end up saying to themselves "Why did I waste all this time thinking about logical results, when I could have enjoyed my life, where is the logic in my actions?"

Who cares if all we feel is caused by chemicals? We still feel.[/quote]


The last line of your post is the only good one. The first paragraph is a terrible misconception about people who tend to think logically. How the hell would you know what people "end up saying to themselves?"[/quote]

It was a joke.
By trying to understand everything logically, when they look back, they realize they wasted time, and try to make logic of it.
I'm not refering to any particular person, so maybe it is a misconception.
You know, maybe someday you'll understand what I mean, but I'm not going to try and make you understand, so for now let's say that you are right.

[quote="Utsuseru"]
It was a joke.
By trying to understand everything logically, when they look back, they realize they wasted time, and try to make logic of it.
I'm not refering to any particular person, so maybe it is a misconception.[/quote]

Where would you get that idea, though? It seems that you just imagined it without actually considering any evidence.

[quote="Jomei"][quote="Utsuseru"]
It was a joke.
By trying to understand everything logically, when they look back, they realize they wasted time, and try to make logic of it.
I'm not refering to any particular person, so maybe it is a misconception.[/quote]

Where would you get that idea, though? It seems that you just imagined it without actually considering any evidence.[/quote]

I used to think like that, but when I realized that all the time I spent was a waste, and tried to apply logic, I ended up in a paradox. Why do I think about thinking why I think.
I'm happy living in a perceptive, not a logical.
You can't explain everything.

You crack me up, Utsu.

Gotta love the insta-cred gained from the "I used to think your way but now I know it's wrong" line.

well, his logic isn't that bad if you take it as "whenever i applied logic, i hit contradictions, that's why i don't use it anymore."

but if you were applying logic properly, there would be no contradictions.

[quote="zenkalia"]well, his logic isn't that bad if you take it as "whenever i applied logic, i hit contradictions, that's why i don't use it anymore."

but if you were applying logic properly, there would be no contradictions.[/quote]

Actually, contradictions are one of the best ways to know something and the only way to know something without evidence. Without even considering evidence from the real world, you know that any statement that contains a contradiction is false.

[quote="sheerheartattack"][quote="I is buster?"][quote="sheerheartattack"][quote="I is buster?"][quote="sheerheartattack"]It's called psychology. The only true artistic and independent thinkers are all hermits who have no friends. These people are rare and unusual because we're mentally programmed to consider what other people think of us. It's why we as humans are a social species. When you see someone who looks "different," there's a 99.999% chance that they aren't trying to be "different;" they're only trying to be the "same" as a different group. It's nothing to admire.

Nothing personal, but it's ridiculous when people try to candy-coat logic, truth, and science with "artistic" explanations. Even art is entirely logical.[/quote]

I don't think you quite understand how art works... People aren't hermits who have no friends... Just because you have seen movies that say so or don't have any artist friends, doesn't mean that we don't have social lives. Your psychology just proved that you think as a socially influenced being.

You also can't just say that all art is logical. Yes, the placement of objects in a viewing frame is logical based on what is pleasing, but then the feeling and raw emotion of the artist takes over. There is not always a reasoning for why a person decides to paint with a brush a certain way or why specific lighting was used in a film.
[/quote]

That's about 40% misunderstanding what I said and about 60% bullshit. Unfortunately for you, I don't think as a socially influenced being. I think as an objective and logical being - you know, the kind that isn't ignorant.

I said if someone was truly an artist and independent thinker, he would be a hermit. Otherwise, it would prove that he is a normal human, and he would depend on what others thought of him, and would therefore conform. Any socially involved person is conforms. Period. We have these things called genetics which program us to be socially functionable. There's nothing we can say or do about it. We have 0% control over our desires and needs.

I can easily say that all art is logical, because it is. All thought processes are logical in one way or another, no matter how abstract or impossible to comprehend they are. "Feelings" and "raw emotion" are the exact kind of candy-coated bullshit I was talking about. It's all based on biology and probability - not some inexplicable emotional aura.

I don't mean to be mean, but the sooner you are disillusioned of your ignorance, the better.[/quote]

First of all, I have been able to argue my point without using insults and name calling. I think you try to at least tone it down a bit and be more respectful... As I said before in another thread, just because you can annoy people online and remain anonymous, doesn't mean you should. Neither of us are all knowing, or so I would imagine.

So, I misunderstood what you were saying about independent thinkers being hermits. However, you don't unnecessarily have to be a hermit to think independently in art. (maybe just completely, but even then in this hypothetical situation you would have to be in complete darkness without any interaction with anything, a kind of Kasper Hauser situation. Then would the person have any concept of art?) Nobody fully understands the nature of art, you can throw all the logic at it you want, but there is always some human aspect that is not understood that attributes to the piece. I suppose all art has some sort of influence from a social standpoint, directly or indirectly, but you can still argue that there is a great deal of independent thought that goes into works.

For instance the style of a work is possibly affected by social encounters, but how do you explain the creation of expressionism or abstract art? I know that some artists like Picasso based his painting style on African masks, but works by Van Gogh, Kathe Kollwitz, or Edvard Munch did not have a direct social influence to create their style. So how do you explain what came from their heart and the emotions that they spilled upon the canvas? Can you argue that emotion is logical?

Jomei, I really like this discussion and I will bring it back to films at some point. What we are talking about is an important component of this topic because film is an art form.[/quote]

While there were perceived shots at you, you will find upon closer inspection that there were no direct personal insults or name callings in my post. Perhaps you perceived "bullshit" to be offensive, but it has a functional meaning of "that which is off topic and/or without proper substance."

Anyway, as to the topic at hand (well, ours at least), just because somebody doesn't understand something, that does not mean it does not exist. Ignorance is merely ignorance. There is a logical explanation for everything, and the only intelligent way to approach such explanations is through objectivity. While "it's raw human emotion" sounds cute, it's really a candy-coated expression for "I don't know, so I'll just try to romanticize it." Such romanticization demonstrates the same human nature that brought us religion, superstition, alien abductions, and the paranormal.

I'm not intending to explain such specific things as you requested, nor am I knowledgeable or prepared to. However, I am positive that there is an explanation, and I can certainly argue that emotion is merely a logical arrangement of chemicals and nerves that have evolved over the years.[/quote]

I meant the calling me ignorant. Just because I have a different point of view, it doesn't mean I am ignorant. I don't know if you have ever studied philosophy, but what I figured out a few posts ago was that you are a [b]Rationalist[/b] and I am an [b]Empiricist[/b] . We could have gone on forever, but this argument will never end.

Utsuseru is thinking as a Kantian. I agree with him though. I don't fully say I am one or another for all things because honestly I really don't care that much. I don't subscribe to any religion because I just don't feel the need for it. If you knew there was an afterlife then it would change your life significantly, but there is really no way to prove God or an afterlife, so why worship something that you aren't sure is there? You are living now, right? So why not take what you have and go with it? Just live dammit!!!

Anyways, I'll get back on topic at some point... I have stuff to do.... I just got Photoshop today, so I want to mess with that too.

[quote="I is buster?"]stuffs[/quote]

I'll just point out that rationalism and empiricism aren't mutually exclusive.

[quote="Jomei"][quote="zenkalia"]well, his logic isn't that bad if you take it as "whenever i applied logic, i hit contradictions, that's why i don't use it anymore."

but if you were applying logic properly, there would be no contradictions.[/quote]

Actually, contradictions are one of the best ways to know something and the only way to know something without evidence. Without even considering evidence from the real world, you know that any statement that contains a contradiction is false.[/quote]

The crazy thing is... I saw a glimpse of the Void and actually understood how to achieve fullness from nothingness. It was fucking mind-blowing.

[quote="I is buster?"]
Anyways, I'll get back on topic at some point... I have stuff to do.... I just got Photoshop today, so I want to mess with that too.[/quote]

Please don't tell me you [i]bought[/i] Photoshop. Please.

Anyway, to you I just have this to say:

Bah.

[quote="Jomei"]
I'll just point out that rationalism and empiricism aren't mutually exclusive.[/quote]

In fact, they can easily complement each other.

I suggest seeing: This Film Is Not Yet Rated.

[quote="sheerheartattack"]
Please don't tell me you [i]bought[/i] Photoshop. Please.

Anyway, to you I just have this to say:

Bah.

[quote="Jomei"]
I'll just point out that rationalism and empiricism aren't mutually exclusive.[/quote]

In fact, they can easily complement each other.[/quote]

Yes I [i]did[/i] buy it, because I don't pirate everything off the internet like a lot of people do. I bought it with a school discount, so it wasn't really that much.

Yeah, I suppose they aren't mutually exclusive, but we were arguing from those perspectives on this subject.

I'm still not doing my homework yet. Damn internets...

I guess, whether you paid for it or not, you have Photoshop, so that's a plus.

But it's still unfortunate that you paid for it.