[quote="I is buster?"][quote="AWPJudy"][quote="sheerheartattack"]Guys, I know history is hard, but this was [i]four years ago[/i].[/quote]

30 dead americans a month says this is still relevant.
[/quote]

But apparently one country freed from a tyrannical dictator doesn't mean so much to the media [/quote]

But apparently one country experiencing genocide doesn't mean jack shit to America.

[quote="Blank"][quote="I is buster?"][quote="AWPJudy"][quote="sheerheartattack"]Guys, I know history is hard, but this was [i]four years ago[/i].[/quote]

30 dead americans a month says this is still relevant.
[/quote]

But apparently one country freed from a tyrannical dictator doesn't mean so much to the media [/quote]

But apparently one country experiencing genocide doesn't mean jack shit to America.[/quote]

But it apparently it does to musicians, especially Bono. It's all the media's attitude. Things like global warming or genocide in Darfur are passed off as some sort of hippie issue, rather than something that needs actual attention... We are too deep into Iraq or Afghanistan to do much, but why don't any other countries step in? Why doesn't the UN actually do some good for once and fucking step in there?

[quote="I is buster?"]Yeah, most of those people were allied with to fight the Russians. This is after the fact and now we have to deal with our stupid mistakes. How did we know that any of these people were going to be tyrannical dictators when given a wealth of power?[/quote]

ok then.. take the contras for example:

we support the brutal brutal dictator anastasio somoza, and then later his son, with tons of millitary and financial aid. an overwhelmingly popular rebellion arises and tosses them out after a civil war, and what is the first thing the rebels do? hold an open election, which is monitored my several international watchdog groups - and called one of the most fair and open elections ever held, which is more than they've said about OUR elections - and sure enough, the rebel leader is elected. what is the first thing he starts to do? sieze power like most guys would?

nope, he starts building thousands of schools (raising the literacy rate by like %35-45), national health care, and more importantly, dispensing the HUGE sections of the land owned by american corporations to the poor, foodless, and homeless.

the US government simply couldnt stand for that. why should they have control over THEIR land? how else will we get our fucking coffee??

so the CIA asks congress if we can support the contras, to try and [i]throw out the democratically elected government.[/i] to which congress said no.

does that stop the CIA? not one bit, why should they listen to congress. i mean, they're only our elected representatives, its not like they're the president or anything.

so they start ([b][i]illegally[/i][/b]) selling weapons to iran, and knowingly allowing - if not helping - the contras funnel millions of dollars worth of cocaine in to the us - causing the inner-city crack epidemic of the 80's.

they take this money to train (in us millitary bases) contras, and provde them with weapons.

the contras then launch a brutal guerrilla war to try and restore the oligarchy, restore an american-corporation-friendly government.









at what point in [i]any[/i] of this does it [i]even remotely[/i] seem like we're supporting the right team?

supporting anything but the interests of corporate america?

supporting the idea of democracy?



clouds, this was the mid '80s. i'd say they stuck to that quote [i]very[/i] faithfully.

[quote="AWPJudy"][quote="I is buster?"]Yeah, most of those people were allied with to fight the Russians. This is after the fact and now we have to deal with our stupid mistakes. How did we know that any of these people were going to be tyrannical dictators when given a wealth of power?[/quote]

ok then.. take the contras for example:

we support the brutal brutal dictator anastasio somoza, and then later his son, with tons of millitary and financial aid. an overwhelmingly popular rebellion arises and tosses them out after a civil war, and what is the first thing the rebels do? hold an open election, which is monitored my several international watchdog groups - and called one of the most fair and open elections ever held, which is more than they've said about OUR elections - and sure enough, the rebel leader is elected. what is the first thing he starts to do? sieze power like most guys would?

nope, he starts building thousands of schools (raising the literacy rate by like %35-45), national health care, and more importantly, dispensing the HUGE sections of the land owned by american corporations to the poor, foodless, and homeless.

the US government simply couldnt stand for that. why should they have control over THEIR land? how else will we get our fucking coffee??

so the CIA asks congress if we can support the contras, to try and [i]throw out the democratically elected government.[/i] to which congress said no.

does that stop the CIA? not one bit, why should they listen to congress. i mean, they're only our elected representatives, its not like they're the president or anything.

so they start ([b][i]illegally[/i][/b]) selling weapons to iran, and knowingly allowing - if not helping - the contras funnel millions of dollars worth of cocaine in to the us - causing the inner-city crack epidemic of the 80's.

they take this money to train (in us millitary bases) contras, and provde them with weapons.

the contras then launch a brutal guerrilla war to try and restore the oligarchy, restore an american-corporation-friendly government.









at what point in [i]any[/i] of this does it [i]even remotely[/i] seem like we're supporting the right team?

supporting anything but the interests of corporate america?

supporting the idea of democracy?



clouds, this was the mid '80s. i'd say they stuck to that quote [i]very[/i] faithfully.[/quote]

Similarly, how did we know our own leaders were going to be idiots when given power... We've seriously done some messed up shit, but I think that this democratic government that has been set up in Iraq will stay and there is no way that we can screw with it in any way. People nowadays demand to know what the government is doing and will do all they can to stop it from fucking everything up again...

[quote="I is buster?"]People nowadays demand to know what the government is doing and will do all they can to stop it from fucking everything up again...[/quote]

Too bad many are viewed as bleeding-heart liberals and therefore are highly ignored by both conservatives and non-partisan voters.


Judy: I'd love it if you could tell me where you're getting most of your information from.

[quote="AWPJudy"][quote="sheerheartattack"]Guys, I know history is hard, but this was [i]four years ago[/i].[/quote]

30 dead americans a month says this is still relevant.

[/quote]

Who said it was irrelevant? I was saying that it's not that difficult to remember what happened four years ago.

And it seems like Judy is criticizing the CIA, rather than the government. I don't think the CIA has that kind of influence anymore, with the ever-increasing governmental scrutiny. Therefore, it's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, contrary to popular belief, there is no such entity as "Corporate America" that controls every aspect of US politics.

[quote="Blank"]Judy: I'd love it if you could tell me where you're getting most of your information from.[/quote]
read about [i]any[/i] book, about [i]any[/i] country in south america, and you'll find that we've been fucking with them for a long long time.

also: google iran contra afffair

[quote="sheerheartattack"]I don't think the CIA has that kind of influence anymore, with the ever-increasing governmental scrutiny. Therefore, it's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, contrary to popular belief, there is no such entity as "Corporate America" that controls every aspect of US politics.[/quote]

the [i]president[/i] pardoned all the guys involved in the iran/contra affair after they were convicted.




guess what: 20 years later, they're all [i]still[/i] working for the [i]current[/i] administration.

[quote="AWPJudy"][quote="Blank"]Judy: I'd love it if you could tell me where you're getting most of your information from.[/quote]
read about [i]any[/i] book, about [i]any[/i] country in south america, and you'll find that we've been fucking with them for a long long time.[/quote]

Yeah, I could do that, but I was hoping you read something along the lines of: The Big Book o' American Atrocities or something and could thus recommend it to me.


Kind of unrelated: But does this mean that the bestest shooter game ever [Contra] is actually propoganda entertainment? =O!

lol, AWPjudy, don't use the internet as a resource please...

Also, about these "bleeding heart liberals" as mentioned before seem to favor not killing at all, even if it is punishment for a crime. So many liberals (that I have met) who are trying to be good moral people seem to forget that reprimanding a person is not the same as killing someone in cold blood (IMO) and can't take one decisive action. Right now, liberalism is so popular because people all have one thing to hate and come together on. For instance, I was reading an old article in our school paper (bunch of Commies if you ask me ) and there was an article about some person who robbed, raped and murdred someone in North Dakota and was facing the death penalty. The article did not support the death penalty for this man, even though there was conclusive evidence that he committed these crimes. Why, so he could rot in prison, using up tax dollars for being an evil person? Seriously, wtf?



... What was I talking about... e--- to-------

[quote="I is buster?"]lol, AWPjudy, don't use the internet as a resource please...

Also, about these "bleeding heart liberals" as mentioned before seem to favor not killing at all, even if it is punishment for a crime. So many liberals (that I have met) who are trying to be good moral people seem to forget that reprimanding a person is not the same as killing someone in cold blood (IMO) and can't take one decisive action. Right now, liberalism is so popular because people all have one thing to hate and come together on. For instance, I was reading an old article in our school paper (bunch of Commies if you ask me ) and there was an article about some person who robbed, raped and murdred someone in North Dakota and was facing the death penalty. The article did not support the death penalty for this man, even though there was conclusive evidence that he committed these crimes. Why, so he could rot in prison, using up tax dollars for being an evil person? Seriously, wtf?



... What was I talking about... e--- to------- [/quote]

As I've said before in some other thread, a lifetime imprisonment sentence should just be called the long, drawn-out death penalty.

Why are you debating about this?
As far as entire countries go, there are no good guys or bad guys.

[quote="Utsuseru"]Why are you debating about this?[/quote]

Why not? The conversation had actually started to wind down, if you hadn't noticed.




On Topic: I was never a Transformers fanboy, and I'd rather see an interesting movie with plot. Does the movie deliver there, or is it all just an excuse to have giant mechs blow shit up without being Gundam?

Well, back on topic again, the thing that most fans of Transformers are looking for is just a bunch of robot fighting. But, many younger kids don't know much about Transformers and wouldn't enjoy it as much if there was just robots fighting without any explanation as to why. You can't just be like, "This is earth. Also, there are giant robots that transform into commonly known vehicles which fight each other... That's normal, right?"

[quote="I is buster?"]Well, back on topic again, the thing that most fans of Transformers are looking for is just a bunch of robot fighting. But, many younger kids don't know much about Transformers and wouldn't enjoy it as much if there was just robots fighting without any explanation as to why. You can't just be like, "This is earth. Also, there are giant robots that transform into commonly known vehicles which fight each other... That's normal, right?"[/quote]

So... does it have a plot then?

[quote="Blank"]
So... does it have a plot then?[/quote]

'course it does. It wasn't extremely deep, but it had a plot.